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Gurdjieff Defrag

Posted by Pat on November 07, 1997 at 14:10:37:

In Reply to: More on Dreaming posted by Phil on September 21, 1997 at 10:22:20:

: Hi Pat,

: I have been thinking about your comments for a few
: days. Hence the delay :^)

: I am not sure that the concept of a dreaming self
: as an entity distinct from any other self is a
: very useful idea. Its bad enough having three
: selves! This concept of a dreaming self is
: obviously crucial to the whole question of whether
: dreaming awareness is as confused by the logic of
: linear events as our everyday waking awareness is
: confused by logic of dream sequences.

: I think we have to ask the question whether our
: dreaming awareness is really a distinct self
: apart from our conscious self. Then we are caught
: up in the old greek and chinese paradox's of
: dream-v-non dream reality. (Once upon a time I,
: Chuang Tsu dreamed I was a butterfly flying
: happily here and there, enjoying life without
: knowing who I was. Suddenly, I woke up and I was
: indeed Chuang Tsu. Did Chuang Tsu dream he was a
: butterfly, or did the butterfly dream he was
: Chuang Tsu). If it is a self does it sleep when
: the conscious self is awake and if it sleeps does
: it dream? All difficult questions beacuse we are
: dealing with incomplete and possibly
: fundamentally incorrect conceptualisations of
: reality.

: I have recently been considering the relationship
: between the dreaming process and its effects on
: the functioning of our memory and general
: consciousness and the way in which a computers
: hard drive can be defragmented in various ways
: to optimize its performance. Interestingly in the
: Gurdjieff - fourth way school spiritual
: teachings there is a technique for reviewing in
: your mind the whole of a days events and
: experiences before you sleep that stops a very
: large part of the night time dream process as
: seemingly no longer being necessary. One of
: Gurdjieffs aphorisms was "sleep little without
: regret", which has a number of different meanings
: but in this context would you be happy to sleep
: less and dream but little or not at all?

: I myself have lucid dreams on occassion but I
: would not describe myself as a lucid dreamer in
: as much as I do not persue it as a technique. Its
: just happens.

: As to what the conscious self should do with the
: 1/3 of a days rest that we give it? I am not sure
: I understand the question as the conscious self
: is asleep then and I am not sure that forcing it
: to be lucid (ie conscious ) during dreaming is
: necessarily helpful..... though it can certainly
: be interesting!

: Aloha

: Phil

Hi Phil
Between getting a new internet service provider,working on '96 taxes, and trying to find all my old links, its been one heck of a month. It's good to be back. I've been thinking, whether we have 3 selves or 7, it seems the main objective is to realize them as one. They all have to blend together somehow, maybe even loose their distinctiveness. Perhaps as I consciously reach out and try to become more familiar with and aware of how my other selves function, they are doing the same towards me ( perhaps not :-) That brings us back around to the paradox.. I've always thought the answer to that is " Of course, both ! ". Allowing that multiple and simultaneous realities are possible, I think there is a dream self (or a subconscious), whose end product is reality. This reality is the stuff the conscious self plays with, and in turn produces memories that evoke emotions, which is the play stuff of the dream self. I guess that makes the high self the facilitator and that's the one I understand the least! I watch myself create reality. I just haven't figured out how.
I like your computer analogy. The fourth way defrag. Let's see, to carry that in the opposite direction, defrag straightens out memory. (Memory is subconscious). If memory is in good shape, programs run smoothly,as viewed through the monitor (reality). Whenever my computer is running smoothly, I feel compelled to make it do something new and different, I input new commands, requests and programs, like Norton Utilities. It almost crashed my system. Then it's time for me to quit inputing, that would be sleep, and run defrag again.
Well so much for the silly stuff. To "sleep little without regret" , that sounds facinating. It looks like I need to study this fourth way stuff for a while. You're right about that 1/3 of the day, I look at it now as defrag time. Aloha Pat

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: : : Hi Pat, : : I have been thinking about your comments for a few : : days. Hence the delay :^) : : I am not sure that the concept of a dreaming self : : as an entity distinct from any other self is a : : very useful idea. Its bad enough having three : : selves! This concept of a dreaming self is : : obviously crucial to the whole question of whether : : dreaming awareness is as confused by the logic of : : linear events as our everyday waking awareness is : : confused by logic of dream sequences. : : I think we have to ask the question whether our : : dreaming awareness is really a distinct self : : apart from our conscious self. Then we are caught : : up in the old greek and chinese paradox's of : : dream-v-non dream reality. (Once upon a time I, : : Chuang Tsu dreamed I was a butterfly flying : : happily here and there, enjoying life without : : knowing who I was. Suddenly, I woke up and I was : : indeed Chuang Tsu. Did Chuang Tsu dream he was a : : butterfly, or did the butterfly dream he was : : Chuang Tsu). If it is a self does it sleep when : : the conscious self is awake and if it sleeps does : : it dream? All difficult questions beacuse we are : : dealing with incomplete and possibly : : fundamentally incorrect conceptualisations of : : reality. : : I have recently been considering the relationship : : between the dreaming process and its effects on : : the functioning of our memory and general : : consciousness and the way in which a computers : : hard drive can be defragmented in various ways : : to optimize its performance. Interestingly in the : : Gurdjieff - fourth way school spiritual : : teachings there is a technique for reviewing in : : your mind the whole of a days events and : : experiences before you sleep that stops a very : : large part of the night time dream process as : : seemingly no longer being necessary. One of : : Gurdjieffs aphorisms was "sleep little without : : regret", which has a number of different meanings : : but in this context would you be happy to sleep : : less and dream but little or not at all? : : I myself have lucid dreams on occassion but I : : would not describe myself as a lucid dreamer in : : as much as I do not persue it as a technique. Its : : just happens. : : As to what the conscious self should do with the : : 1/3 of a days rest that we give it? I am not sure : : I understand the question as the conscious self : : is asleep then and I am not sure that forcing it : : to be lucid (ie conscious ) during dreaming is : : necessarily helpful..... though it can certainly : : be interesting! : : Aloha : : Phil : Hi Phil : Between getting a new internet service provider,working on '96 taxes, and trying to find all my old links, its been one heck of a month. It's good to be back. I've been thinking, whether we have 3 selves or 7, it seems the main objective is to realize them as one. They all have to blend together somehow, maybe even loose their distinctiveness. Perhaps as I consciously reach out and try to become more familiar with and aware of how my other selves function, they are doing the same towards me ( perhaps not :-) That brings us back around to the paradox.. I've always thought the answer to that is " Of course, both ! ". Allowing that multiple and simultaneous realities are possible, I think there is a dream self (or a subconscious), whose end product is reality. This reality is the stuff the conscious self plays with, and in turn produces memories that evoke emotions, which is the play stuff of the dream self. I guess that makes the high self the facilitator and that's the one I understand the least! I watch myself create reality. I just haven't figured out how. : I like your computer analogy. The fourth way defrag. Let's see, to carry that in the opposite direction, defrag straightens out memory. (Memory is subconscious). If memory is in good shape, programs run smoothly,as viewed through the monitor (reality). Whenever my computer is running smoothly, I feel compelled to make it do something new and different, I input new commands, requests and programs, like Norton Utilities. It almost crashed my system. Then it's time for me to quit inputing, that would be sleep, and run defrag again. : Well so much for the silly stuff. To "sleep little without regret" , that sounds facinating. It looks like I need to study this fourth way stuff for a while. You're right about that 1/3 of the day, I look at it now as defrag time. Aloha Pat