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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2004 : 20:03:09
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Aloha kakou,
This is going to be difficult to understand, so get a cup of Coffee and your Pipe or a Cigarette, sit down and let's get going into that tangled web between the languages of Hawaiian Ho`omana (Archaic Hawaiian Pagan religion, no longer taught or believed in, human sacrifice was seen to be, um, a little outdated by the Victorians who influenced old Hawaii) and the Hunian language of Huna.
So, first off, although I have been working on the Hunian language since 1980, before me was Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, HRA. And before him was Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long. And before him was Kahuna Nui William Tufts Brigham in Honolulu in the late 1800's. So we na Kahuna `o Huna have been working on our liturgical language for over 100 years now.
Additional support may be had from reading the native Hawaiian, Kahuna Big Daddy Bray's account of na Aumakua, in his book of the Kahunas of Hawaii. (In Hawaiian, "Kahuna" just means any Minister, Priest, Pastor, etc.)
http://www.borderlands.com/catalog/papers.htm
Now, there are NO true translations of any two or more languages, nothing ever quite fits. And since the theology of Huna is so different from the archaic theology of Hawaiian Ho`omana, and every other religion in the world, the complications are worse.
It is the teaching of the Huna religion, that when the words for the Three Selves are translated from the Hunian into the Hawaiian, we come out with:
Aumakua
Uhane
Unihipili
These words are, as might be expected, close, as the Hunian language is a sometimes a dialect of the archaic (1865) version of the old Hawaiian Language (no longer spoken).
In the Hunian language, as expressed by Kahuna Nui Max in his book, "The Huna Code in Religions" the Hunian words for the Three Selves are:
Aumakua
Auhane
Aunihipili.
Close, but no Cigar!
However to a Hawaiian of the last century or more, there are only four "na Aumakua" or Family Gods, that's right, only four: Shark, "Mano"; Eel, "Puhi"; Lizard, "Mo`o"; and the Owl, "Pueo".
To an old Hawaiian of more than 100 years ago, what we are talking about with our "Aumakua" is their, "Akua Lele". BUT that is NOT the "Akua Lele" of any Modern Hawaiian!!! To any Modern Hawaiian, an Akua Lele is a shimmering ball of light about 3 feet in diameter, which follows people around at night and goes on unfortunate business!!! The Modern Hawaiian has no idea what we mean by an "Aumakua" unless we explain our theology to them.
Like, looking upwards, we have three souls. To the ancient Hawaiian, we have two souls. To the Modern Hawaiian, we just have the one of Christianity.
In the Hawaiian, an "uhane" is a spirit. "Auhane" in Hunian is the rational mind's soul.
There is no word, "Auhane" in the Hawaiian language.
In the Hawaiian, a translation of our theological concept of the emotional soul is: "unihipili". BUT in the Hawaiian language, an unihipili is a person's spirit kept in his or her bones and hair. And the hair used to make a mana filled lei.
Whereas in Hunian, an aunihipili is the sub-conscious mind /soul of another. There is no word, "aunihipili" in the Hawaiian language.
We can not get into a long and profitable discussion of the "Eyes of Io" of these Hunian words, but I'll give a gloss here:
Au-makua:
Au: A flow or distinction in the mind of Oiai`o (God. "Oiai`o" in the eyes of Io are shadowed, "absolute" or fundamental - truth)
As you will recall, "au" is used in Hunian anywhere the English word "I" is used. But it isn't anything like "I" at all. It means a
"flow or currant" (in the mind of God).
As Kevin put it: "The question is centered on an individual. That is foreign to Polynesian thought. We-all (kakou) exist only as a part of a web of relationships -the fulfillment of which is "alofa/aloha/aroha/aro'a" .
makua: parent, a mature person, neither male nor female, or either or both.
So, ultimately, in the Hunian language, an Aumakua is the end product of our souls evolved. And because we are each only half a souls evolution into its aumakuahood. The soul and its Belovèd.
Whereas in the archaic Hawaiian language, the "Aumakua" is a House or Family God. One of only four, whereas in the Hunian religion, there are about 1.5 billion active na Aumakua today.
Yet, the Hunian language isn't capricious and arbitrary. Before I studied the word for "name", I thought it was the same as the Hawaiian word, "inoa". ONLY to discover that that word didn't fit the rules of Hunian at all! So, from 1865, Lorrin Andrews, in his first dictionary, suggested "kainoa" and that was the correct answer.
BOTH "Huna" and the "Hunian" language are like painstakingly brushing the dust and accumulated dirt from the bones of a dinosaur. It is as if both the new religion and the new language are actually very very old, and the owned property of our gods...
Our na Kahuna, or Priests of Huna have one general devotion, to become Aumakuas themselves and "Graduating". To do that, we serve our gods. But our gods just want two real things from us as our service to them; to be bold, and helpful, and harmless and friendly and appreciative of all the Created World, and to have fun. <Um, Lani, that's more than two...oops, sorry, my bad...>
A hui hou,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`aLani
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Havaii
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 21:12:37
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do you know anything about the niihau language or tahito Ôrero Havai`i? the missionaires got rid of the b,r,v & t in 1822 & want to learn about the language before they ruined it.
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2005 : 18:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Havaii
do you know anything about the niihau language or tahito Ôrero Havai`i? the missionaires got rid of the b,r,v & t in 1822 & want to learn about the language before they ruined it.
Mahalo for posting your POV.
The Hawaiian anti-white movement intent on the corruption the Hawaiian language by making it into a weak form of Tahitian is a thing that is happening.
It is helpful to Huna as it helps us define our language as more removed from the Modern Hawaiian language.
You are wrong, of course. Mary Pukui was an active Hawaiian Kahuna, as well as the author of the "NANA I KE KUMU" series of books, and the only contemporary Hawaiian Dictionary.
The exact pronouncation of each Hawaiian word was taught to na Kahuna befofe the Hawaiians begged the Missionaries to come to Hawaii.
In it, Mary Pukui chants her anceint chants in perfect anceint Hawaiian. No "r" or "t" etc.
As she chanted, as it was handed down to her from before the Missionaries ever came to Hawaii - However, at the request of the Hawaiians.
So my maika`i upon your endevour! It supports the Hunian language!
A hui hou,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
(Named by a native Hawaiian Kahuna in a formal naming ceremony. Want to see my naming chant? What's yours first?)
These are new times, gotta move on! Hey...
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mouth11
4 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2005 : 20:21:22
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Very funky i love it. 
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OreroHavaii
6 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2005 : 14:58:36
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The only thing hard to understand is how u can say such things inspite of overwhelming evidence. Haven't u ever read Children of the Rainbow" by Leinani Melville? Or read the journal of william ellis or anything by Captain Cook? Visit http://www.spiritmythos.org/earth/Pihana%20Old/childrainb.htm
This has nothing to do w/ being anti-white, i'm part white. Before Havaiian was even havaiian it was tahitian and fatu hivan because it's proven scientifically that's where Havaiians came from.
Anyone who is interested in the Havaiian language should read the book "Children of the Rainbow" by Leinani Melville or go to the website:
http://www.spiritmythos.org/earth/Pihana%20Old/childrainb.htm. In this book, Leinani says what I’ve been saying for 10 years, that in the 1826 the Havaiian language was overthrown by missionaries who forever changed the language. The first to record the language recorded the letters T, R, V, B & D as being part of the language. However, the missionaries wrongly voted to leave out those letters and "standardized" the language. I have been insulted and called a liar by some in spite of the truth. The reason I’m being opposed is because they feel like I’m deligitimizing what they've learned. No, what you’ve learned is a good base but you should learn Niihauan in addition. It’s a natural human reaction to deny the truth even when you know its truth rather than having to fix what you’ve invested years of your life learning. The Havaiian taught in the University of Hawaii system and in emersion is NOT the true language of Havaii. It is a Ha’ole version which is being perpetuated by some Havaiians. You'd think all the Ha’ole hating Havaiians out there would be glad I'm bring this information but some sadly are not. I wrote to UH & OHA giving documented proof of this however the truth is being suppressed by some because it is much easier to go on with the same old program rather than change. Niihau Hawaiian retains the letter T and thus is the only authentic Havaiian language left and UH should stop suppressing this. Niihauan should be taught instead of the Ha’ole version of Havaiian.
quote:
Originally posted by Lani
quote:
Originally posted by Havaii
do you know anything about the niihau language or tahito Ôrero Havai`i? the missionaires got rid of the b,r,v & t in 1822 & want to learn about the language before they ruined it.
Mahalo for posting your POV.
The Hawaiian anti-white movement intent on the corruption the Hawaiian language by making it into a weak form of Tahitian is a thing that is happening.
It is helpful to Huna as it helps us define our language as more removed from the Modern Hawaiian language.
You are wrong, of course. Mary Pukui was an active Hawaiian Kahuna, as well as the author of the "NANA I KE KUMU" series of books, and the only contemporary Hawaiian Dictionary.
The exact pronouncation of each Hawaiian word was taught to na Kahuna befofe the Hawaiians begged the Missionaries to come to Hawaii.
In it, Mary Pukui chants her anceint chants in perfect anceint Hawaiian. No "r" or "t" etc.
As she chanted, as it was handed down to her from before the Missionaries ever came to Hawaii - However, at the request of the Hawaiians.
So my maika`i upon your endevour! It supports the Hunian language!
A hui hou,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
(Named by a native Hawaiian Kahuna in a formal naming ceremony. Want to see my naming chant? What's yours first?)
These are new times, gotta move on! Hey...
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 20:42:09
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>>>The only thing hard to understand is how u can say such things inspite of overwhelming evidence.
Oh, that's easy to understand. It's ke alanui e pono ia `o huna, as taught to me personally by my kumu, Kahuna Nui `o Huna, Max Freedom Long. I do not dispute my kumu, do you have a kumu?
>>>Haven't u ever read Children of the Rainbow" by Leinani Melville?
I don't do a lot of reading about other people's religions much anymore. I'm not too intetrested in the Hawai`ian stuff. Huna is more to my likeing. I'm not much into the Hawai`ian Ho`omana, the human sacrifices, the proper gutting and cleaning of humans. The cooking of them in the Imus. The eating of them at the old aha`aina. But each to their own. As long as the sacrifices are all volunteers, like na kahu, that's fine my me. (And yes, I know, na kahu were not eaten, but buried alive at the corners of na heaiu `o ho`omana.)
I had a healing practice in professional offices for over 12 years, made my living by my competence as a Huna healer. The HRI devoted an entire issue of "The Huna Work" on my Huna healing practices. Cured the insane, did na kala (exorcisms), fought religious battles with Human Sacrifice Cults. When I bless wood, it changes color after I give the beads away. When these people, all over the world now, touch them to agonized and bleeding stranger's,wounds, in better than 90% of the time there is an instant healing. Not too shabby for a Kahuna `o Huna ho`ola and a white boy from LA.
"Melville" was a friend of a Huna member, Arii-Peu Tama-Iti (Charlie Kenn), a designated "Living Treasure" according to the Hawai`ian Congress. Most of the Huna chants I sing into reality, in a language far older than Hawai`ian, come from him, to my kumu, and by ho`okama adoption, to me, and from me to my na haumana and ho`okama mamo.
It was Arii-Oeu Tama-Iti in Hawaii in 1980 who explained to me the difference between the Hunian language and the modern Hawai`ian language, and why little progress can be made in Huna in the Modern Hawai`ian language. You see, it all has to do with the translation of the word: "au". In modern Hawai`ian it means, "I", but in the Hunian language, it means "a flow in the mind of Oiai`o", the creator God known to Huna.
Just like, according to Kahuna Big Daddy Bray, there are only four na Aumakua in hawaii, and in the Huna Doctrine of Evolutionary Consciousness discovered by the Huna Kupuna, Kahuna Oscar Brunler, an Aumakua is the end product of all humans. <SHRUG> Did you enjoy Kahuna Nui Max's book on the Hunian language, "THE HUNA CODE IN RELIGIONS"?
>>>This has nothing to do w/ being anti-white, i'm part white. Before Havaiian was even havaiian it was tahitian and fatu hivan because it's proven scientifically that's where Havaiians came from.
That's true, just as Huna came from the Hawaiian islands via Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long. But the Hawai`ians aren't Tahitians, and the Hunians aren't Hawai`ians. A simple thing to understand...if you're not a racist.
>>>Anyone who is interested in the Havaiian language should read the book "Children of the Rainbow" by Leinani Melville or go to the website:
http://www.spiritmythos.org/earth/Pihana%20Old/childrainb.htm.
Interesting. but I have no interest in the Hawai`ian language.
Modern Hawai`ian is good for the modern Hawaiians. I lead the Huna Firewalk at my Huna Church each year, either myself or my ho`okama mamo. But there is no need for any Hawai`ian to know the difference between an Umu and an Imu since that is no longer a part of their culture, although it remains an important distinction for us Hunian Firewalkers! Nor is it necessary to comprehend the Hunian difference between our word, "kainoa" and the same word in Hawai`ian, "inoa". Since for the modern Hawaiian, "au" means "I". Hawai`ians, yes, Hunians, no.
The phonolgy is of no importance, the definations are terribly important. But then, maybe that's because I'm used to the Hunian dialect of the Common Polynesian Tongue.
It is for my lineage to teach the proper Hunian mana`o, and for people of Hawai`ian linage to teach their kumu's mana`o.
You don't seem to be seeking understanding of Huna. That's about all I'm interested in.
Are you passing on your mana`o given to you by your kumu? I am...
Aloha,
Hahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 15:07:36
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Well, if you're shy, here's the naming chant the native Hawai`ian Kahuna gave me in a formal naming ceremony, with may Huna Church members attending, etc.:
e moliaola `oe
kaumaha ia, kaumaha ia
pa`a `ia iho a pa`a
ka `i`ini me ka `ano`i
ua pono na hana nui au
na ke akua e malama mai ia` oe
ho`i mai e alaka`i nui
ho`ike a`e `oe a i kou nani
i ka malamamalama `oi kelakela
E pueo, E pueo!
i ka wahine nui ho`A lani
e hele ia `oe
e pili i ka noa papa hana
e ho`opili i lahui hihiu
Ia manawa popilikia
e ola i po`e maluna lokahi a me wahi noho like o ka po`e
ho`omaika`i `oe i nana i wahine me ke aloha
ho`a `oia i lani
ka walina la
walina mai ana ho`i i kopule e
e ho`anu `oia i na pikimana
i hiki ai ke kipaipai i kekahi
e heleku ma kele `ao`ao i ka nopu pikimana
A hiki`i o lakou hopena
e moliaola `oe
kaumaha ia, kaumaha ia
pa`a `ia iho a pa`a
ka `i`ini me ka `ano`i
ua pono na hana nui au
na ke akua e malama mai ia` oe
ho`i mai e alaka`i nui
ho`ike a`e `oe a i kou nani
i ka malamalama `oi kelakela
e alahula loa`a `oe!
e ho`pkele `oe o kona lahui!
e ho`ano i wahine ho`a lani o kou inoa
ho`a lani o kou inoa
e o e ho`ano i wahinne ho`a lani! i kou inoa!
ua ponoi na hana nui au.
na ke akua e malama mai ia` oe.
ho`i mai e alaka`i nui
ho`a lani o kou inoa.
e o e ho`ano i wahine ho`a lani! i kou inoa!
(by Kahuna Kealoha O Na Ka Puna
December 1, 1991)
If anyone else is interested who doesn't speak modern Hawai`ian, just let me know and I'll post the English version here.
Also, guy, don't get me wrong. I'm all for your corruption of the Hawai`ian language back into Tahitian. That just separates Huna all the more from Ho`omana, so maybe we can get over all this turf war stuff you and some others here are into.
And always remember and never forget: "HUNA ISN'T HAWAIIAN!!!"
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
(Rev. He-who-dies-in(is devoted to)-service-to-the-Huna-goddess-of-the-Firewalk, Wahinenuiho`alani (Great Woman Who Sets Fire To The Sky)
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 13/11/2005 : 13:52:46
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No, after calm reflection, I souldn't have called the Tahitianization of Modern Hawaiian as "corrupt". The fact is that everything and all languages are always in flux and change. Hawaiian too! The Aryan tribe came down during the last Ice Age. Where they moved on, the left their language behind, and it changed too. In India, it became "Sanscrit", In Iran (just another spelling of Aryan) it became Farse, and in Europe it became High German.
So, if you'll kala me, let's just change this sentence:
"Also, guy, don't get me wrong. I'm all for your work of changing of the Hawai`ian language back into Tahitian. That just separates Huna all the more from Ho`omana, that takes some of the duty off our shoulders, so maybe we can get over all this turf war stuff you and some others here are into.
And always remember and never forget: "HUNA ISN'T HAWAIIAN!!!" |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 13/11/2005 : 15:18:24
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Aloha,
But you deserve a more complete answer. This is just off the top of my head, so the names and years, if I use any, are likely to be off a little.
Now the first major dictionary of the Hawaiian language (no longer spoken) was written by Judge Lorrin Andrews. and published in 1865. In it he carefully explains that each island's Hawaiian is a little different from each other. And to confuse things further, Each island has THREE dialects, which in some areas are mutually un-understandable. The Hawaiian of the Common Folk (Kama`aina`na), the Priestly Class (na Kahuna), and the Royal Court dialect, (na Ali`i). Indeed, the third King of Hawaii (I think) Lihiliho yelled at a kama`aina`na that his name wasn't "Liholiho" but "Rihoriho", which is the pronouncetation at that time of the Common dialect and the Courtly dialect.
Andrews explains carefully that his dictionary is of the common Hawaiian of Oahu. Much of the Hunian language is based upon the Andrew's Dictionary. And a lot is very different too, of course.
Originally the young Prince and Princess of Hawai`i wnet to Yale and begged the missionaries there to come to Hawai`i to "save the souls of their heathen people", and the yale Missionaries agreed. Then they both died on their way to London, England, IIRC.
A year before any Missionaries arrived, the commoners staged a Civil War, after a Hawai`ian Princess broke Kapu, and they tore down all the Heiau (Temple) except for one, and killed all the Kahunas they could find. This to "make Hawai`i ready for the Missionaries" to arrive several months later.
These were their Temple Kahunas the Hawai`ians mostly killed. The na Kahuna Ho`ola or healers and some other kinds were passed over, and some of their knowledge was passed on down their `Ohana lineages. The passing on was still a thing of many na kapu (rules). Each word of each chant learned had to be pronoounced absolutely correctly.
In the late 1940's and early 1950's Mary Pukui, a traioned linguist, also made the second, dictionary of the Hawai`ian language, but this time the modern language. She was also a trained Kahuna from her `ohana lineage.
I have seen old movies of her doing traditional chants she was trained in. The phonology is identical to modern Hawai`ian! There is NO TAHITIAN phonology at all that I could hear.
It's really none of my concern. But if Mary Pukui's chants are the same phonology as today's Hawai`ian and none of the Tahitian stuff, then I'd put my money of her chanting the sounds very very correctly.
IMHO. <SHRUG>
A hui hou,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani |
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Phil
Ireland
190 Posts |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2005 : 12:40:50
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Mahalo nui, Philip,
When I was talking to Arii-Peu Tama-Iti HRA, (Charles Kenn) in Hawaii at Napo`o`po`o at the International Huna Convention in 1980, we discussed many things. It was just a conversation between Arii-Peu Tama-Iti and me, recorded by the HRI BoD member, John Bainbridge. (He told me that he has lost track of that tape, after all that was over 25 years ago.).
Not only was he (I think) responsible for many of the Huna chants passed down onto me and other HRAs by my kumu, Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long, but it was on that taped conversation that Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, a designated "Living Hawaiian Treasure", and the perhaps only person allowed to translate the old Hawaiian writings, but it was he who explained to me the most important significance of the Hunian language, which he and Kahuna Max and before them, Kahuna Ha`ole William had been working on. I could or would never have understood the vastness of the gulf between the languages without that conversation with that old Hawaiian gentleman. From Tama-Iti's POV, it was in fact the Missionaries who changed the meaning of the most fundamental word of all the Polynesian tongues, "au", but that I should carry on the work of the development of that new language or dialect.
It is not for me to try to convince Polynesians about the true meaning of "au", but to make my own bed, and not blame others for messing it up, nor to critique them, their languages or their ways. For "Po maika`i na mea e pau." (Everything is blessed.)
He had originally been selected by the Huna Po`e Aumakua to continue the practice of the Fire-made-sacred Firewalks, but in this he failed, just as Kahuna Ha`ole Nui before him had failed to pass it on.
Yet, the Po`e Aumakua are immortal, and their plans will eventually bear fruit, sooner or later in the generations. In 1968, just before Kahuna Nui Max ordained me as another Kahuna `o Huna of the Huna Fellowship Church, I promised him I would return the Fire-made-sacred to Huna, and this I have done, although it took me 20 years to find Kahuna Paka to initiate me. The Po`e Aumakua was heavy with him, even though he wasn't into Huna, his Aumakua is. And in the initiation, without knowing anything about my ke alanui in Huna, he gave out to the haumana there, xerox copies of Max Freedom Long's writings! I was stunned, I might as well have been in a Huna Initiation (which I was, but no one knew it until later).
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti told me what had happened, which I didn't know. His firewalk kumu was in Tahiti, and asked him to come over and receive his final training in leading the Firewalk, be introduced to his gods, etc. he lived in Hawaii. Meanwhile, his best friend Melville, lay dying in San Francisco, and also asked him to come to see him one last time. He came to be with Melville as he died. Meanwhile, he told me that there is a Hawaiian prophecy that the next Firewalker will rule Hawaii. And there was a Kahuna `Ana`ana (Death Prayer Priest) who had become jealous of Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, and finding his opportunity, killed Arii-Peu Tama-Iti's kumu, and the thread of the fire-made-sacred was lost to us again.
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti became `awa (bitter) and after Kahuna Nui Max published Arii-Peu Tama-Iti's book on Firewalking, he abandoned us and Huna. He had failed, yet we knew aloha for him. It was a murderous kokiki (point of choice) for him, and any of us would have been challenged to make it. The Huna moral law in this case is: "AFFILIATION OVER ACQUISITION", so the question between good and evil within him resolved itself on what he conceived his Firewalk Initiation to be: "Was it to gain for him the ability to do the Firewalk?" If so, then Huna morality said to chose the other course. Yet, if it said, "Is it your duty to be the kumu for the Huna people to regain the fire-made-sacred." Then that would place both of the questions on one side, and then the same question would apply. Serve himself and his pili with his friend? Or serve as kumu, according to the Will of our gods, the mamo or descendants of Huna?
In his `awa (bitterness) and guilt, he turned against his friend, Kahuna Max and all of Huna. Spoke out publicly against Huna for many years. But now it was no longer 1949 but 1980, and he was demur. He told me, and it was recorded, that he believed that Huna should be given a chance to prosper, since it had lasted so long. So he came to our Huna Conference as an honored guest. And nei (there and then) came upon our clans; peace.
Yet, no one knows now today of that conversation we had. And Bainbridge has lost the tape. And Charlie Kenn's olelo `awa (bitter tongue) articles are still out there. Good people are prejudiced against us because they respect him, and do not know that he, as his life faded, came to respected us, and gave us his blessing.
And the funny thing is, it was he and he alone who got me interested in the Hunian language!!! I had no idea of what "THE HUNA CODE IN RELIGIONS" was all about until that time.
hahaha, life is such a hoot!
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`aLani
Mahalo nui, Philip,
When I was talking to Arii-Peu Tama-Iti HRA, (Charles Kenn) in Hawaii at Napo`o`po`o at the International Huna Convention in 1980, we discussed many things. It was just a conversation between Arii-Peu Tama-Iti and me, recorded by the HRI BoD member, John Bainbridge. (He told me that he has lost track of that tape, after all that was over 25 years ago.).
Not only was he (I think) responsible for many of the Huna chants passed down onto me and other HRAs by my kumu, Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long, but it was on that taped conversation that Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, a designated "Living Hawaiian Treasure", and the perhaps only person allowed to translate the old Hawaiian writings, but it was he who explained to me the most important significance of the Hunian language, which he and Kahuna Max and before them, Kahuna Ha`ole William had been working on. I could or would never have understood the vastness of the gulf between the languages without that conversation with that old Hawaiian gentleman. From Tama-Iti's POV, it was in fact the Missionaries who changed the meaning of the most fundamental word of all the Polynesian tongues, "au", but that I should carry on the work of the development of that new language or dialect.
It is not for me to try to convince Polynesians about the true meaning of "au", but to make my own bed, and not blame others for messing it up, nor to critique them, their languages or their ways. For "Po maika`i na mea e pau." (Everything is blessed.)
He had originally been selected by the Huna Po`e Aumakua to continue the practice of the Fire-made-sacred Firewalks, but in this he failed, just as Kahuna Ha`ole Nui before him had failed to pass it on.
Yet, the Po`e Aumakua are immortal, and their plans will eventually bear fruit, sooner or later in the generations. In 1968, just before Kahuna Nui Max ordained me as another Kahuna `o Huna of the Huna Fellowship Church, I promised him I would return the Fire-made-sacred to Huna, and this I have done, although it took me 20 years to find Kahuna Paka to initiate me. The Po`e Aumakua was heavy with him, even though he wasn't into Huna, his Aumakua is. And in the initiation, without knowing anything about my ke alanui in Huna, he gave out to the haumana there, xerox copies of Max Freedom Long's writings! I was stunned, I might as well have been in a Huna Initiation (which I was, but no one knew it until later).
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti told me what had happened, which I didn't know. His firewalk kumu was in Tahiti, and asked him to come over and receive his final training in leading the Firewalk, be introduced to his gods, etc. he lived in Hawaii. Meanwhile, his best friend Melville, lay dying in San Francisco, and also asked him to come to see him one last time. He came to be with Melville as he died. Meanwhile, he told me that there is a Hawaiian prophecy that the next Firewalker will rule Hawaii. And there was a Kahuna `Ana`ana (Death Prayer Priest) who had become jealous of Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, and finding his opportunity, killed Arii-Peu Tama-Iti's kumu, and the thread of the fire-made-sacred was lost to us again.
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti became `awa (bitter) and after Kahuna Nui Max published Arii-Peu Tama-Iti's book on Firewalking, he abandoned us and Huna. He had failed, yet we knew aloha for him. It was a murderous kokiki (point of choice) for him, and any of us would have been challenged to make it. The Huna moral law in this case is: "AFFILIATION OVER ACQUISITION", so the question between good and evil within him resolved itself on what he conceived his Firewalk Initiation to be: "Was it to gain for him the ability to do the Firewalk?" If so, then Huna morality said to chose the other course. Yet, if it said, "Is it your duty to be the kumu for the Huna people to regain the fire-made-sacred." Then that would place both of the questions on one side, and then the same question would apply. Serve himself and his pili with his friend? Or serve as kumu, according to the Will of our gods, the mamo or descendants of Huna?
In his `awa (bitterness) and guilt, he turned against his friend, Kahuna Max and all of Huna. Spoke out publicly against Huna for many years. But now it was no longer 1949 but 1980, and he was demur. He told me, and it was recorded, that he believed that Huna should be given a chance to prosper, since it had lasted so long. So he came to our Huna Conference as an honored guest. And nei (there and then) came upon our clans; peace.
Yet, no one knows now today of that conversation we had. And Bainbridge has lost the tape. And Charlie Kenn's olelo `awa (bitter tongue) articles are still out there. Good people are prejudiced against us because they respect him, and do not know that he, as his life faded, came to respected us, and gave us his blessing.
And the funny thing is, it was he and he alone who got me interested in the Hunian language!!! I had no idea of what "THE HUNA CODE IN RELIGIONS" was all about until that time.
hahaha, life is such a hoot!
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`aLani
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 17/11/2005 : 12:08:39
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Aloha Philip,
I've even e-mailed the Hawaiian guy, OreroHavaii, to keep up this spirited discussion, , but he hasn't responded yet. I hope he does, a lot of new information was being brought out.
I doubt that most people knew of Melville and his friend Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, HRA, and Melville's death in San Francisco with Arii-Peu Tama-Iti at his side. And the fact that a Death prayer Priest took the opportunity, when Arii-Peu Tami-Its's thoughts were elsewhere, to murder his kumu, thus ending Huna's chance of the return of the fire-made-sacred to Huna another 50 years. Thus ending one of the lives of the last to Firewalk Priests in all Polynesia. The killing happened in 1949-1950.
And that without a conversation about the Hunian language with Arii-Peu Tama-Iti in 1980, the Hunian ;language would have been lost. (At least I *think* I am the only kumu of it at the moment).
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti was a designated "Living Treasure of Hawaii), and got a monthly stipend from the State for that. In addition he was the designated translator of all the old early post-contact time Hawaiian language records. What was Melville's rep in Hawaii for his linguistic competence? I don't know.
Melville believed that the phonology of ancient Hawaiian was the key to it, Arii-Peu Tama-Iti believed differently, believed that it was the definitions of the words which was the key. <SHURG>
Melville grew `awa towards the whites, and got stuck in the past, trying to right matters long settled. On can not despise your Kupuna and go back a hundred and fifty years and change the decisions they made. Arii-Peu Tama-Iti saw the past, became the world's greatest expert in old Hawaiian, and wanted to step away from those same decisions, and in order to honor the Kupuna, simply make a new dialect for a new people: HUNA. For Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, Hunian was a new chance for him, and it had already been worked on since 1872, he could ho`oikaika it, not originate it. The same as I have done since 1980.
I hope he posts more, this was fun, and it brought back some old but cherished memories for me.
Not necessarily OreroHavaii, but several militant, anti-white, anti-Huna people I have played with, here and elsewhere...I have a good Hawaiian friend, one of the few full blood natives, I asked him why he spoke to me in a friendly way, and liked many of the things I said. Wasn't he afraid of the "Hawaiian Renaissance movement's" anti-white anti-Huna stance?
He told me that Kahuna Nui Max and his Huna had gotten some things correctly. And that he believed that all militant Hawaiians, trying to actually resurrect old battles long lost, instead of building into the future, weren't originally Hawaiians at all. That the na Aumakua of the worst ha`ole haters had been reborn as Hawaiians into their `Ohana's to open their hearts to grace and aloha. But that for some of the, it will take them generations to heal them. So, from his POV, the anti-white Hawaiian haters are the born again souls of anti-Hawaiian whites!
What a hoot! When I met my Belovèd in a Vision, she was an Indian. When the Huna goddess of the Firewalk appeared to me and 11 of my friends, she wore Indian dress. I was an Indian dancer and I was a Powwow singer and had my own Drum (Group). Maybe I was an Indian last time? hehehe But no, my father had a lot of German blood in him, and I try to conquer the world every 20 years or so...
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`aLani
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OreroHavaii
6 Posts |
Posted - 17/11/2005 : 13:57:40
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Lani,
Dont u ****ing isult my by calling me guy, ok girl? I've got royal blood in my veins. If you're going to be a boki and make TAHITIAN comments like that then I'm not going to deal with you. As a descendant of the niihauan people it's a freaking insult. Havaiians are the descendants of fatu hivans and tahitians. while fatu hivan makes heavy use of the "k" tahitian does the "T". however, fatu hivan still uses t,r, v, etc. Hawaiian did evolve into it's own language so it's not tahitian nor fatu hivan but still retains those influences. It's just like you calling an african american an african. don't insult niihauans or pre-missionairy havaiian speakers by claiming their langugage is a tahitian corruption although they understand tahitians as a niihauan told me. There language is mostly un-corrupted by those missionaires. As far as Mary Pukui goes, it is impossible for the pre-missionary language to be completly void of a T, r or v. while some havaiians use the v pernuncition while spelling a w it confuses people who don't know. the missinaires voted out the t,r,v,d & B and there is not debating that by any havaiian language scholar so obiously she's speaking the post-missionary version. dont worry "HUNA ISN'T HAWAIIAN, im not interested in huna so i think talking 2 u was a mistake
Here's a traditional Hawaiian chant by prince Leileohako.
Kanahele also notes that Noble left the original Hawaiian lyrics as they were, including the use of a 't' instead of a 'k' which was common in ancient Hawaiian as well as Tahitian,
Tahuwai la a tahuwai wai la
Ehu hene la a pili koo lua la
Pututui lu a ite toe la
Hanu lipo ita paalai
Tahuwai la a tahuwai wai la
Ehu hene la a pili koo lua la
Pututui lu a ite toe la
Hanu lipo ita paalai
Au we ta huala
Au we ta huala
Tahuwai la a tahuwai wai la
Ehu hene la a pili koo lua la
Pututui lu a ite toe la
Hanu lipo ita paalai
Tahuwai la a tahuwai wai la
Ehu hene la a pili koo lua la
Pututui lu a ite toe la
Hanu lipo ita paalai
Au we ta huala
Au we ta huala
obisouly, i didn't spell these lyrics.
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2005 : 18:33:32
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Aloha kakou,
It is impossible, it seems, to live one's proper religion without others putting it down. <SHRUG> However, such is life in the Big City. If it's not the Christian Fundies then it's the anti-white, anti-Huna Hawaiians.
So here's the last night's interchange between me and a militant anti-white from Hawaii, posting on a "Huna" conference in London.
I don't go to their boards, why do they come to Huna boards? It's a mystery.
I am reminded of my Hawaiian friend's mana`o: "All these militant Hawaiians aren't really Hawaiian souls at all. Their na Aumakua had them reborn as Hawaiians in Hawaiian na `ohana to teach them aloha and ho`okipa. They are the souls of arrogant, anti-Hawaiian whites".
Aloha
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`aLani
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lani,
Dont u ****ing insult my by calling me guy, ok girl?
>Ah, if you are a guy or a gal is no insult in my book. Your prejudice extends to all males too? You can call me a gal or a guy, no prob. I'm a guy, but each to their own.
I've got royal blood in my veins. If you're going to be a boki
>There is no "b" in the Hawaiian Language. Check in with your Kupuna, Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, HRA (Charles Kenn) (a Huna religion devotee under his friend Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long), or Mary Pukui. It is Arii-Peu Tama-Iti who took it upon himself to keep the Hunian language alive when I talked to him personally in Hawaii at the Huna Conference in 1980.
and make TAHITIAN comments like that then I'm not going to deal with you.
> Well, I don't blame you for declaring victory, pretending that I said things things I never said, and running away and hiding. If I were in your position I'd hide too.
As a descendant of the niihauan people it's a freaking insult. Havaiians are the descendants of fatu hivans and tahitians. while fatu hivan makes heavy use of the "k" tahitian does the "T". however, fatu hivan still uses t,r, v, etc. Hawaiian did evolve into it's own language so it's not tahitian nor fatu hivan but still retains those influences. It's just like you calling an african american an african. don't insult niihauans or pre-missionairy havaiian speakers by claiming their langugage is a tahitian corruption although they understand tahitians as a niihauan told me.
>You do understand, don't you, that you are spitting on all your Kupuna by bringing their long dead decisions into dispute? It would be a far more pono thing to do to simply to start from where you are, and openly declare that you've changed the Hawaiian Language to suit your notions than to dishonor your Kupuna and their decisions. Now if you want to stand in the nei, I'm all for ya, dude or dudette! The more difference between the Hunian language and the Hawaiian serves to notify people that Huna isn't Hawaiian.
There language is mostly un-corrupted by those missionaires. As far as Mary Pukui goes, it is impossible for the pre-missionary language to be completly void of a T, r or v.
>So, you've never actually heard Kahuna Pukui chant, as I have? You've never talked about Hawaiian with Melville, as I did with his best friend, and the finest scholar of Hawaiian, Arii-Peu Tama-Iti (Charles Kenn)?
while some havaiians use the v pernuncition while spelling a w it confuses people who don't know. the missinaires voted out the t,r,v,d & B and there is not debating that by any havaiian language scholar so obiously she's speaking the post-missionary version. dont worry "HUNA ISN'T HAWAIIAN, im not interested in huna so i think talking 2 u was a mistake.
>If you're not interested in Huna, then why are you posting on a Huna board? *I* didn't seek you out. *You* sought me out. And I am clairifying your pono`ole as far as the Huna religion and tribe is concerned.
Here's a traditional Hawaiian chant by prince Leileohako.
>As I stated, in 1865 Judge Lorrin Andrwews, when making the first complete Hawaiian dictionary explains that each Island has its own dilect, and three versions of it: Ali`i, Kahuna and Kama`ainana. And that the Alii dialect of Oahu pronounced "Liholiho" as "Rihoriho". That's been known since 1865, so what's new? Modern Hawaiian stems from the Andrews Dictionaly of the Hawaiian dielect of Oahu of the Kama`ainana dielect followed by the Pukui Dictionary. The only two complete dictionaries of the Hawaiian Language. <SHRUG>
Kanahele also notes that Noble left the original Hawaiian lyrics as they were, including the use of a 't' instead of a 'k' which was common in ancient Hawaiian as well as Tahitian,
...
One of the Kanaheles I know, is a Kahuna `Ana`ana (Death Prayer Priest). Does that make you proud?
obisouly, i didn't spell these lyrics.
>Obviously. They were written in another one of the many distinct dialects of Hawai`ian language, as noted by Judge Lorrin Andrews in his classic, "Dictionary of the Hawaiian Language", 1865.
A hui hou,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
PS: I guess you don't have a naming chant? Pity, would you like me to create one for you? It would be my first, and I would make it nice. You have a difficult job in your life. It would be in the Hunian tongue, of course, but still. Mine is in Hawaiian, which is a foreign language to me. But still...
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2005 : 13:53:46
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Aloha `o olelo hawai`i (by whatever kainoa),
You mention that the phonology of "w" can be misleading. It only is if one mistakes it for English and NOT Hawai`ian. If it is just a squiggly mark used to indentify a form of Hawai`ian, that there's no prob.
A much greater problem is when English speakers run into what the linguists call :the silent Tahitian "k"", or the `ikina! Why didn't you address that? It makes a great difference in the sound of the language and is a major participant in the phonology of the anceint different dialects of the many Hawai`ian Islands and casts.
Modern Hawai`ian language is descended from the local Kama`ainana (commeners) dielct of the Oahu Island as defined by Judge Lorrin Andrews in 1865 and completed (for a time) by Kahuna Mary Pukui in the 1950's.
So what you are trying to do, is to remake the decisions of your kupuna over, say that they were corrupt and in error, and put one version of one Hawaiian moku as the "new old" Hawaiian over the Oahu dialect's version.
That is pono`ole (to use a Hunian word, I have no idea of what it would be like in Hawai`ian).
Now you don't have to hate Huna and whites and missionaries, after all no Missionaries were coming to Hawai`i until you-all begged them to come. Went all the way to Yale to do it. No need to be be aloha`ole and lokahi`ole, you can just honor the decisions of your kupuina, and stand in the nei and decide to speak the Haweaiian language dialect you like best and approve of.
If you did that, I'd be happy to approve of your work!!! And I'd be on your side. Please honor and respect the decisions of your kupuna, as I do mine. If you honor my kupuna, I'll honor yours (although I already honor them).
See? We can all be friends!
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani |
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OreroHavaii
6 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2005 : 17:06:59
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Open your ****ing ears you liar. i never put your religon down.
It is impossible, it seems, to live one's proper religion without
others putting it down. <SHRUG> However, such is life in the Big City. If it's not the Christian Fundies then it's the anti-white, anti-Huna Hawaiians.
I'm not putting your religion down but I'm insulting u for insulting me. How can I be anti-white if I'm white?
So here's the last night's interchange between me and a militant
anti-white from Hawaii, posting on a "Huna" conference in London.
How can I be anti-white if I'm white?
I don't go to their boards, why do they come to Huna boards? It's a
mystery.
I didn't know it was a huna board. i asked a simple question and started to insult me. you should of said your at the wrong place but your a jerk so u insulted me
I am reminded of my Hawaiian friend's mana`o: "All these militant
Hawaiians aren't really Hawaiian souls at all. Their na Aumakua had them
reborn as Hawaiians in Hawaiian na `ohana to teach them aloha and
ho`okipa. They are the souls of arrogant, anti-Hawaiian whites".
i hate religion
>Ah, if you are a guy or a gal is no insult in my book. Your prejudice
extends to all males too? You can call me a gal or a guy, no prob. I'm
a guy, but each to their own.
no only assholes like u.
>There is no "b" in the Hawaiian Language. Check in with your Kupuna,
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, HRA (Charles Kenn) (a Huna religion devotee under his
friend Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long), or Mary Pukui. It is Arii-Peu
Tama-Iti who took it upon himself to keep the Hunian language alive when I
talked to him personally in Hawaii at the Huna Conference in 1980.
Which Hawaiian Language r u talking about? The post missionary one obiously. you really dont know very much. Do a little ****ing reasearch before you run your mouth. Niihauans have the b in their names. Do a little reasearch on governor boki of oahu.
and make TAHITIAN comments like that then I'm not going to deal with
you.> Well, I don't blame you for declaring vistory, pretending that I said
things things I never said, and running away and hiding. If I were in
your position I'd hide too.
Liar, you said it was a tahitian corruption. was is a insult
As a descendant of the niihauan people it's a freaking insult.
Havaiians are the descendants of fatu hivans and tahitians. while fatu hivan
makes heavy use of the "k" tahitian does the "T". however, fatu hivan
still uses t,r, v, etc. Hawaiian did evolve into it's own language so it's
not tahitian nor fatu hivan but still retains those influences. It's
just like you calling an african american an african. don't insult
niihauans or pre-missionairy havaiian speakers by claiming their langugage is
a tahitian corruption although they understand tahitians as a niihauan
told me.
>You do understand, don't you, that you are spitting on all your Kupuna
by bringing their long dead decisions into dispute? It would be a far
more pono thing to do to simply to start from where you are, and openly
declare that you've changed the Hawaiian Language to suit your notions
than to dishonor your Kupuna and their decisions. Now if you want to
stand in the nei, I'm all for ya, dude or dudette! The more difference
between the Hunian language and the Hawaiian serves to notify people that
Huna isn't Hawaiian.
Listen ****face My only kupuna r from niihau and don't tell me what i should or shouldnt do. you sound like a christian fundie. No one kupuna can make descions for every havaiian. Go to niihau and learn real hawaiian.
>If you're not interesdted in Huna, then why are you posting on a Huna
board? *I* didn't seek you out. *You* sought me out. And I am
clairifying your pono`ole as far as the Huna religion and tribe is concerned.
Look, i didnt know ok? i dont care about huna
Here's a traditional Hawaiian chant by prince Leileohako.
>As I stated, in 1865 Judge Lorrin Andrwews, when making the first
complete Hawaiian dictionary explains that each Island has its own dilect,
and three versions of it: Ali`i, Kahuna and Kama`ainana. And that the
Alii dialect of Oahu pronounced "Liholiho" as "Rihoriho". That's been
known since 1865, so what's new? Modern Hawaiian stems from the Andrews
Dictionaly of the Hawaiian dielect of Oahu of the Kama`ainana dielect.
No ****in ****. Look i know way more than you about the havaiian language.
Kanahele also notes that Noble left the original Hawaiian lyrics as
they were, including the use of a 't' instead of a 'k' which was common in
ancient Hawaiian as well as Tahitian,
>One of the Kanaheles I know, is a Kahuna `Ana`ana (Death Prayer
Priest). Does that make you proud?
**** you degenerate. I hate anything that ****ing hurts innocent people and despise that hitler tamehameha and that sick religon of human sacrifice.
obisouly, i didn't spell these lyrics.
>Obviously. They were written in another one of the many distinct
dialects of Hawai`ian language, as noted by Judge Lorrin Andrews in his
classic, "Dictionary of the Hawaiian Language", 1865.
Niihau common people did not use the alii dialect but the one they speak to this day.
A hui hou,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
PS: I guess you don't have a naming chant? Pity, would you like me to
create one for you? It would be my first, and I would make it nice. It
would be in the Hunian tongue, of course, but still. Mine is in
Hawaiian, which is a foreign language to me. But still...
Look dickhead you insulted me first so im retaliating. Why would i want anything from someone who insults people w/out provication? |
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OreroHavaii
6 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2005 : 17:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lani
Aloha `o olelo hawai`i (by whatever kainoa),
DON'T PRETEND TO AROHA ME AND DON'T MISPELL MY NAME OK RANI? IT'S ORERO HAVAII. DON'T BE A DICK.
You mention that the phonology of "w" can be misleading. It only is if one mistakes it for English and NOT Hawai`ian. If it is just a squiggly mark used to indentify a form of Hawai`ian, that there's no prob.
WRONG. IF IT'S PERNOUNCED A "V" THEN IT SHOULD BE SPELLED W/ A "V". JUST AS MANY COMMONERS PERNOUNCED IT. SAME W/ "W".
A much greater problem is when English speakers run into what the linguists call :the silent Tahitian "k"", or the `ikina! Why didn't you address that? It makes a great difference in the sound of the language and is a major participant in the phonology of the anceint different dialects of the many Hawai`ian Islands and casts.
Modern Hawai`ian language is descended from the local Kama`ainana (commeners) dielct of the Oahu Island as defined by Judge Lorrin Andrews in 1865 and completed (for a time) by Kahuna Mary Pukui in the 1950's.
NO F***ING SH$T.
So what you are trying to do, is to remake the decisions of your kupuna over, say that they were corrupt and in error, and put one version of one Hawaiian moku as the "new old" Hawaiian over the Oahu dialect's version.
NO ASSHOLE, IM JUST TRYING TO LET EVERONE KNOW THAT THE MISSIONARIES CHANGED THE LANGUAGE AND THAT NIIHAU IS THE ONLY PLACE THAT STILL USES "T". LOOK, FIRST OF ALL MANY TAUAIANS AND NIIHUANS DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO BECOME HAWAIIANS UNDER HITLER TAMEHAMEHA. SO I DON'T GIVE A **** WHICH TUPUNA SAYS WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT FROM NIIHAU.
That is pono`ole (to use a Hunian word, I have no idea of what it would be like in Hawai`ian).
Now you don't have to hate Huna and whites and missionaries, after all no Missionaries were coming to Hawai`i until you-all begged them to come. Went all the way to Yale to do it. No need to be be aloha`ole and lokahi`ole, you can just honor the decisions of your kupuina, and stand in the nei and decide to speak the Haweaiian language dialect you like best and approve of.
CUT THIS **** OUT. I'M AN INDEPENDENT PERSON AND THAT **** HAPPEND A LONG TIME AGO. I OBIOUSLY DIDNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. SHOULD I BLAME YOU FOR ALL THE ATROCITES COMMITED BY WHITES JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE WHITE? WAKE UP. LISTEN DON'T FORCE YOUR VALUES ON ME U CHRISTAN FUNDIE. I DON'T HAVE TO HONOR ANY TUPUNA OR DO ANYTHING.I DON'T FOLLOW ANYONE BUT ME. I DON'T FOLLOW BRAINWASHERS.
If you did that, I'd be happy to approve of your work!!! And I'd be on your side. Please honor and respect the decisions of your kupuna, as I do mine. If you honor my kupuna, I'll honor yours (although I already honor them).
NO WAY. YOU WANT ME TO HONOR THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE INTUNE WITH YOUR PHILOSOPHY. WOULD YOU HONOR MINE WHO R IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO YOUR PHILSOPHY.
See? We can all be friends!
NOT UNTIL U STOP THE VAILED INSULTS AND APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR UNPROVOKED ATTACKS. AT LEAST IM OPEN WITH MINE.
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
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Edited by - OreroHavaii on 20/11/2005 17:21:58 |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2005 : 18:58:11
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My, how you do go on.
______________________________________________
quote:Originally posted by Lani
Aloha `o olelo hawai`i (by whatever kainoa),
DON'T PRETEND TO AROHA ME AND DON'T MISPELL MY NAME OK RANI? IT'S ORERO HAVAII. DON'T BE A DICK.
-There you go again. I have aloha for you and all living and dead beings, you are all aspects of my Huna Creator God: "Oiai`o".-
You mention that the phonology of "w" can be misleading. It only is if one mistakes it for English and NOT Hawai`ian. If it is just a squiggly mark used to indentify a form of Hawai`ian, that there's no prob.
WRONG. IF IT'S PERNOUNCED A "V" THEN IT SHOULD BE SPELLED W/ A "V". JUST AS MANY COMMONERS PERNOUNCED IT. SAME W/ "W".
-Using the Roman letters for Anglo-Saxon (Angle-ish, English) is just one phonology used for those letters.-
Modern Hawai`ian language is descended from the local Kama`ainana (commeners) dielct of the Oahu Island as defined by Judge Lorrin Andrews in 1865 and completed (for a time) by Kahuna Mary Pukui in the 1950's.
NO F***ING SH$T.
-And the completion of this decision was made by your kupuna. Whom you appear to dissrespect.
So what you are trying to do, is to remake the decisions of your kupuna over, say that they were corrupt and in error, and put one version of one Hawaiian moku as the "new old" Hawaiian over the Oahu dialect's version.
NO ASSHOLE, IM JUST TRYING TO LET EVERONE KNOW THAT THE MISSIONARIES CHANGED THE LANGUAGE AND THAT NIIHAU IS THE ONLY PLACE THAT STILL USES "T". LOOK, FIRST OF ALL MANY TAUAIANS AND NIIHUANS DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO BECOME HAWAIIANS UNDER HITLER TAMEHAMEHA. [LANI: King Kameahameaha] SO I DON'T GIVE A **** WHICH TUPUNA SAYS WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT FROM NIIHAU.
-Then why not move there and leave the Hawai`ians and Hunians alone? If you don't honor any of your kupuna except from Ni`ihau, then why should others respect your mana`o? <SIGH> The Po`e Aumakua of `o Huna have set aside an island for the Hunian people to dwell, and they tell us that Huna will prosper there. Step by step we approach the spot with the ho`ailona`aku of our po`e aumakua.-
Now you don't have to hate Huna and whites and missionaries, after all no Missionaries were coming to Hawai`i until you-all begged them to come. Went all the way to Yale to do it. No need to be be aloha`ole and lokahi`ole, you can just honor the decisions of your kupuina, and stand in the nei and decide to speak the Haweaiian language dialect you like best and approve of.
CUT THIS **** OUT. I'M AN INDEPENDENT PERSON
-Humm, then your "Hawai`ian" is very much different from Hunian. When a linguist familiar with the Hunian language was asked by one of my haumana about his meaning in the world, the lingusist, fluent in Maori soke to him as a kumu:
"Your question revolves around how you feel. It is centred on you as an individual. That is foreign to Polynesian thought. You exist only as a part of a web of relationships - the fulfilment of which is "alofa/aloha/aroha/aro'a" [choose the form you like :) ]. Europeans [especially Americans] will spend a fortune on counselling because they 'don't love' their parents, or their parents 'don't love' them. A Polynesian treats his parents with 'aroha' - feeds them, shelters them, treats them with respect - regardless of whether he/she 'loves' them or 'hates' them.
"Feelings are not unimportant, but they are not central. Intention and action are central, and feelings will eventually fall into line - most of the time. Intense hatred for someone does no harm to anyone, and soon passes, if intention and actions are correct.
-You don't have a lot of ho`okipa or even aloha, do you? Well, I still have aloha in my heart for you, enen through the hei of na hala and hihia you are entaangled by.-
AND THAT **** HAPPEND A LONG TIME AGO. I OBIOUSLY DIDNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. SHOULD I BLAME YOU FOR ALL THE ATROCITES COMMITED BY WHITES JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE WHITE? WAKE UP. LISTEN DON'T FORCE YOUR VALUES ON ME U CHRISTAN FUNDIE. I DON'T HAVE TO HONOR ANY TUPUNA OR DO ANYTHING.
I DON'T FOLLOW ANYONE BUT ME.
-Whereas I am just the mamo of my kupuna, a cheerful cog in the Hunian Matrix in Time, as Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long was the mamo of Kahuna Ha`ole Nui William Tucfts Brigham. And I have my mamo who will take over for me when I fall as the thrid mo`i of the Hunian sect of the Huna Mevement.-
I DON'T FOLLOW BRAINWASHERS.
-Again, you sought me out, I never sought you out. And presenting my mana`o to you isn't forcing anything on you. Anyone can be as moakaka as they like, it's no skin off my nose. Just remember that I will kala you at any time, and be your aikane.-
If you did that, I'd be happy to approve of your work!!! And I'd be on your side. Please honor and respect the decisions of your kupuna, as I do mine. If you honor my kupuna, I'll honor yours (although I already honor them).
NO WAY. YOU WANT ME TO HONOR THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE INTUNE WITH YOUR PHILOSOPHY. WOULD YOU HONOR MINE WHO R IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO YOUR PHILSOPHY.
See? We can all be friends
NOT UNTIL U STOP THE VAILED INSULTS AND APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR UNPROVOKED ATTACKS. AT LEAST IM OPEN WITH MINE.
-In the Hunian, we would say, "You act is if you had no relatives." Oh, by the way, I honor your kupuna, even when I think they didn't understand. We only grow by our mistakes.
<SHRUG>
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2005 : 15:14:33
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Gee, I don't think that `o olelo hawai`i (the name in Hunian) is going to play anymore!
Too bad, she was fun to play with, although a little brittle.
Now, the differences between the Hunian language and Hawai`ian are very subtle. Many times the words just have different meanings, and a lot of times the words are different but sound similar and have different but similar meanings.
For example, as described in Kahuna Max's book, "The Huna Code in Religions", he explains that in Hawaiian the words used for the three selves are: Aumakua, Uhane, and Unihipili, But that these aren't the words used in the Hunian language (two different ones): Aumakua, Auhane, Aunihipili. In other words, to the old Hawaiians, an Aumakua is a "house god" or a "family god".
As well as the words meaning different things in the two languages. In Hawaiian, there are only four na Aumakua, Mano, Pueo, Puhi, and one more I can't remember at this moment (according to the Kahuna Big Daddy Bray) (GAD!, Shark, Owl, Eel, and one other...what was it? Oh well...). Whereas in the Huna culture and religion, and Aumakua is the end product of all living. It forms the center of the Huna theology. It is what all life becomes in the end of its evolution. The deification of the person's soul, when once blended with lokahi to one's other half of one's soul---the Beloved.
Then there is a suability in say, a set of Huna practices created by Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long, called " `o ho`oulu`hia". Then Kahuna Fred Kimball created another series under that name, then Kahuna Lani also created a series of practices under that name.
That word doesn't exist in Hawaiian. Their word is: "ho`oulu ia".
Although these mean about the same thing, a benign possession by one's Aumakua to inspire greater effort and pono (righteousness) in some endeavor (for example, a Firewalk).
So, a person knowing one language but hearing another would actually understand about half of what is being said. And would think that they were understanding another 25%, but they were not. And another 25% they would know that it was a different language.
Aloha,
Lani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2005 : 21:16:59
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Hummm,
I think the fourth Hawai`ian "House god" or "family god" or Aumakua is the "Mo`o", the Lizard?
Phil?
Hunamind?
Anyone know?
Lani |
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kaleoaloha
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 14:30:09
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This thread has become quite the "fray"
I have a few points I would like to throw in (my two cents as it were)..
1)How many forms of Aumakua ?
2)Kaona, what does it really mean?
3)forced or natural evolution of a language.
4)keeping a language "alive/living"
5)what is aloha ? do we have it in our hearts?
6)Use of English, use of profanity.
How many forms of "aumakua" are there?
Well I have already said most of the "meat" of what I have to say at -->
http://www.kaleoaloha.com/aumakua.html
On this page I write (second to last paragraph) ..
"To say "My aumakua is ( singular instance/ animal or event, such and such, like a shark say!) is not really embracing the whole of the concept."
and ..
"My point being that I was taught that the physical manifestation (for what ever reason) of your Aumakua is not limited to simply animals of sea life! It could be a wind, rain or lightning ie: a natural event!"
The point here is... (envelope please)....
Certainly there are zillions of variations on the theme, so to speak..
I would like to interject some personal philosophy that I live by, that being..
"belive nothing you hear from a single source, take in ALL in, bank on no one source only observe and compile together the consistent threads you get"
Going on that "M.O" My believe is gleaned from many teachers/kumu. No one of them taught me "all I know" nor do I "bank" on any one of them. However I do take the consistent threads and compile them into a string of continuity.
The continuity I have found (in what I have been taught) is that it is silly to say there is "X" number of aumakua, or my aumakua is "blah blah (in the singular).
Amukua (as I have been taught) is not limited to mammalian, reptilian or amphibious creatures, it is not limited to creatures at all. An aumakua (desceast ancestral spirit) can manifest it's self in numerous ways. It could be an atmospheric event, such as "ka ua koko" (a blood red rain) or lightning.
I would like to quote from one of the most popular and well known Hawaiian chants. The chant composed in the namesake of king David "Kawika" Kalakaua.
2nd stanza:
"Ka uila ma ka hikina 'eh he
(the lightning flashes in the east)
Malamalama hawai'i 'eh he"
(speading a guiding light over hawai'i nei)
Great.. what's the point, what's the relevance to the topic of aumakua ?
Ok well, I was sitting one time with one of my kumu. I said too her (a kumu hula of great renown) .. "Eh yah spose' that the composer of Kawika, knew more about the king and the Kalakaua 'ohana than most of us will ever know?"
Her response was "well I am sure of it, but why do you say that?"
I have not taken the time, nor would I perhaps ever get an answer no matter the research to my question. The question being..
"Is there kaona incorporated into that simple chant for the king?"
I think so !
I (personally believe) that the inference is this.
That one of Kalakaua's aumakua was ka uila/lightning
The composer/s specifically chose to say that, this light is not a blinding light but rather chose to say a bright "guiding light."
Of course it was a guiding light (his leadership) he was the King!
(not to mention the fact that Kalakaua was a devote 33rd degree mason, steeped not just in his own culture but that of others as well. He formed a secret society. Asked many kahuna both of the healing arts and the opposite extreme the kahuna "ana'ana" to join this society's meetings. At which they were asked to put aside all differences in the name of mutual learning and archiving of what was known about huna and things Hawaiian in general. Neither here nor there, but those meetings did not last very long. All the records were kept in the king's very own bedroom closet at the 'Iolani palace. There was a fire of mysterious origin. It broke out (surprisingly enough) in the kings bedroom (closet to be exact) while he was away. It was quickly squelched, no major damage to the palace, yet all records of the Kings secret society were lost)
OK back to the two lines of that chant.
It says that this guiding light was/is in the east 'ka hikina". But lets take a moment and think about all this, ...this chanting, this language and kaona stuff. The word "hiki" in it's self does not mean the eastern direction on the compass rose. Instead it means "the arrival" and it means "possible/possibilities".
My personal interpretation of just this short two line stanza is such..
"the lightning, a physical manifestation of (one of) Kalakaua's aumakua, or deceased ancestral lineage, gives him the strength of conviction and deliberance. It gives him a spiritual guidance that is unseen too pragmatic eyes. It's spread, brings the arrival of new and exciting possibilities"
a *note here:
In our mythology, where is pele from? She (it is said over and over in the chants) is from "Kahiki". OK so is "Kahiki" Tahiti? is it specifically Bora Bora?
Or rather is it even more simple than that? Kahiki in Hawaiian has many meanings actually. It means simply "the arrival" or the "possibilities". Another meaning is "from a place beyond the horizon, or a distance that can be perceived by the naked eye."
Just my personal opinion, but I believe we are being told many things in one message. That being "WE DON'T KNOW WHERE PELE ORIGINATED FROM" ... but..
Who cares? what is important is what transpired after her "ua hiki mai 'ana i ka pae 'aina O Hawai'i nei"
So this takes me to another point.
The point that kaona is something that was revered as an ability in composition. A good chant was not even going to get any audience unless it had many multiple meanings, and that in it's self was not all it took. It took a great weaving of the words and prose to create a deftly engineered poem. Kaona is something that not only has been all but lost as a skill in creating poetry, but in it's interpretation as well. I can't stress enough, that kaona must be taken into account when interpreting Hawaiian prose, poetry and language. However this is a double edged sword. The down side being, unless you actually know/knew the composer's, and they told you specifically the underlying message of their poetry, your interpretation is just that "your interpretation".
One of my kumu (for example) told a story to a group of students. he had written a song. The song won that years "Hoku awards" and subsequently became a contemporary classic. Some years later at an event he overheard some people talking about the kaona of his song (kumu said they apparently were unaware that it was his composition). The people around him went on and on about the composer's kaona. The actual composer got a chuckle. They all had (kumu said) wonderful and glowering interpretations. Yet they were all so far of base.
Yes there has been natural and forced evolution of the Hawaiian language and all the various dialects. Yes the missionaries in their frustration to spread the "word of-(their God)-" to the hawaiians, tried to learn the language, but could not to the degree needed to teach the gospel to these island peoples. So they got the hawaiians to modify their language, Make it have more annunciation, more stucatto.
Of course the people of Ni'ihau speak differently than the more abrupt dialectic style of the peoples say of the Ka'u district of south point Hawai'i.
Hawaiian as a language almost died entirely. It is experiencing an immense resurgence (thanks to the immersion schools and a few other factors). But the language is not dead, however as with anything that hears deaths chime toll, it has taken on some remarkable evolutions. I do not wish to go off on a rant, but I am compelled to say.. In one way, I feel that Hawaiian language taught today in the immersion schools, is a disservice to the richness and beauty of that which flourished at/around and well after, western contact. In a nut shell I think taught, modern (university) Hawaiian language, is not far akin to a simple "hawaiianization" of the English thought pattern. Example in point: when I was first learning to speak Hawaiian I called the computer the "pahu lolo uila" or box with the electric brain. I have since (many times) been corrected by people (some being punana leo teachers) that I am "wrong" and that the word for computer is "ke kompukuka". To that I say Bah humbug ! Listen to the Japanese, the Turks or almost any culture's language. The speakers of these languages choose to keep their language intact and use introduced words just as they were discovered. Haven't you ever heard Japanese nationals talking about windsurfing for example ? it sounds like ... "yee yinny yinny do mai, off the lip, ying yang foo choo, windsurf hawai'i boom set. etc etc.
Turks regularly catch a ride cross town in a "taksi"
I say, either say the word "computer" or express it in the language your speaking "ka pahu lolo uila".
Ok I am off on a tangeant, my point is simple. I believe that it is "all good" that this beautiful language and culture of Hawai'i has (obviously) taken some hard hits. Yet, like the expression "no press is bad press", I believe it is all part of our rediscovery of just how inept our present day languages are (for spiritual expression) relative to well crafted Hawaiian!
By speaking it, exploring it and revering it, we as well ... perpetuate it!
Next point:
So what is aloha ? Who has it, who doesn't? Is it a culturally proprietary claim?
Once again easier to shoot a URL on my feelings than to expound here--->
http://kaleoaloha.com/
I would like to address "Oreohavai'i" directly.
I applaud your dedication and love for the language and culture. I see that you are very passionate about it. It is apparent in the emotional way you dialog about it.
However, Do you really feel a need to use profanity in the dialog of debate ?
I am not pointing a "holier than thou" attitude (just start a debate with me about George Bush and if you are a right wing conservative, you most likely can get me frothing at the mouth spewing salty language that would make a sailor blush).
OreoHavai'i .. I am curious where you get you info from ?
You say (choose too) spell the hard "W" sound with an actual "V". WHY?
you say you are Ni'ihauan and of royal descent. You say that it is a disservice to spell the hard sound with the actual "W" ?
Ok this is my own understanding.
Regardless of western contact, there was always a distinct flux across the island chain in dialectic delivery. That in the North west ie: Ni'ihau, the language was very soft, almost "mush mouth" relative to the other extreme. The other end of the scale being south point, or Ka'u district of the big isle.
I was taught by many of my kumu, that (a consistent thread) in short a warrior of ka'u would say "he havai'i au", where as a Ni'ihau person would say it with the soft "W" sound. I was taught this has nothing to do with western contact, missionaries or even George Bush !
Back to aloha though:
OreoHavai'i, I would like to say, that what I have been taught by many of my kumu is that Aloha (boiled into a nutshell) is simply compassion and forgiveness.
As one kumu taught me.. " we have the expression, "ho'okahi O ka lapa'au, O ka mihi" or the #1 medicine is forgiveness. He immediately went on too say "forgiveness does not mean you have to let it be done to you again and again"
Oreohavai'i, have a little compassion, We are all just looking for answers. We all have valid backgrounds and experiences, although sometimes they may conflict in message. I am glad to see your passion, I However, really don't appreciate the anger and profanity.
OK so moving along:
"Lani" I must make a few points with regard to your remarks.
You have mentioned and even quoted "max freedom Long" many times in the thread. As well you have mentioned "Papa bray". I have read many (if not all) of Mr. Long's books. One of the things I was amazed about, was his almost ignoring the whole aspect of "aumakua". In a relative sense he completely glosses over it. I personally feel that although Max Freedom long was indeed a scholar and very inquisitive mind, he was as most of us are, very western in his thinking.
My kumu have taught me that the power of the Hawaiian spiritual belief system is (like so much in life) dependant on a basic triad. The three aspects being, mental intention, the voice, in vocalizing the prayer and setting it too motion. And thirdly and very importantly the calling on of ones aumakua. Now you could process that till the cows come home, I will not right here. My point is that I was taught most of what I know by three or four kumu. All are of Hawaiian lineage. A few now quite old, and one relatively younger. Yet all three forever stress the importance of invoking ones aumakua during prayer. I found that Mr. Long almost negates this aspect of Huna. He just glosses right over it. In one of his books I did a personal search and found (out of 100's of pages of writing) but a mere few sentences about aumakua and the relationship of aumakua to prayer.
I have the utmost respect for the work and legacy left us by Mr. Long, however, I feel he is highly over quoted and a lot of his students are almost "cultish" in their following of his teachings.
He was just one, just a man. A western man at that !
Papa Bray... Same thing. Wonderful man, full of aloha and highly skilled. Papa Bray left us with true contemporary legacy to follow.
But sorry I still have to live by my own adage "believe nothing you hear from a single source, instead take the threads of continuity gleaned from many sources."
So to summarize:
In your last post, you ask..."I think the fourth Hawaiian "House god" or "family god" or Aumakua is the "Mo`o", the Lizard?"
I say ... "who's history book? in who's teachings, at what time, under what circumstances etc etc?"
Lani I respect you and "oreohavai'i" in your collective opinions and backgrounds.
But personally I just feel it is silly to boil all aumakua into simply "four houses"!
This just goes completely against everything I was taught. My teachers that I speak of are not in written words, they are real, alive and vibrant people. People that make a daily practice of their believe system.
Yet that is in it's self a big part of my point.
If somebody is right, doesn't that in turn make somebody wrong?"
I am not saying your wrong. Nor that My teachers are right !
I am merely expressing my disdain for two things prevalent in this thread.
The first being this tendency to try to distill all aumakua into a few simple instances. It is just not that simple!
My other point... We all have valid thoughts and teachers. We learn by sharing. No matter your disdain at what may go against your grain...
One of the greatest of all things I was taught was the expression and meaning of the phrase, "malama kou aloha". We must (almost fight) cherish and nurture our aloha. That along with the word/phrase that our dear queen Lili'uokalani coined, "ONIPA'A".
Onipa'a kakou, (remain steadfast,ad anchored in your believes, yet.. be willing to sway, bend and modify that belief and the lifestyle that follows).
So I guess I have huff'd and puff'd all I choose too (for now) except,
"he mau mea nonoi Ta'u, ia orua 'E rani a'o Oreohavai'i a me na mea haumana huna apau loa. O'ohe o na heru outou, i ma'a i ta alelo tuahine ? 'E ho'o ma'a otou i ta orero hawai'i ?
Ina oruoru 'ia olua, 'e pane mai i ta alelo tuahine wale no !
Well folks.. we are just into the new year, so I want to wish all a good, happy and relatively stress free 2006. Thank you (as always) Phil, for providing us with this forum. Ke aloha pumehana aku au, 'ia Lani a me oreohavai'i..
Onipa'a
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kaleoaloha
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 14:55:56
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'E kala mai okou i ka'u kakau alua pono
Sorry for the ps, or double post but seriously "Lani"...?
Could you point me any documentation that supports your comment..
"The exact pronouncation of each Hawaiian word was taught to na Kahuna befofe the Hawaiians begged the Missionaries to come to Hawaii."
I am sorry but that is , to me, an absolutely absurd comment.
It is my understanding that since queen Kahumanu "made" Liholiho eat with her, at a women's table (efectively destroying the greatest of all kapu and therefore the whole kapu system in general)...
That the queen (Kahumanu) and many Hawaiian leaders of the time, were very much swaying towards a respect for the (percieved) material wealth of the western peoples, and a believe, that perhaps this was a very, very powerful God that they had. Therefore were very much interested in learning more about the ways of the Christians ...
BUT....
"...Hawaiians begged the Missionaries to come...?
Lani can you substantiate this comment ?
It just strikes me as absolutely absurd.
However I could be wrong.....
Oh and "orerohavai'i"...
"...Havaiian was even havaiian it was tahitian and fatu hivan because it's proven scientifically that's where Havaiians came from. '
That is just plain BS !
Science has proven..? Proven what ?
Yah mean the same scientists that "made up" the words "polynesian, micronesian, melanesian, indonesian etc"
Do you think the peoples of the "gilbert" islands call themselves (in their native language) "Gilbertesians" ..
You (orerohavai'i) seem to be fairly well educated about (er hurrumph @ terms) polynesian languages. If it is a (western) scientific "FACT" that Hawaiians are from Tahiti, how come (on a relative sense) Tahitian and Hawaiian are similar languages yet Hawaiian and Maori are Identical? (remember I said in a relative sense)
So Orerohavai'i, your "WESTERN" science may be correct, but personally I don't buy it for a second. You say you read " Children of the Rainbow" by Leinani Melville. Yet you say after reading that book, that Hawaiians are from Tahiti ?
That so negates what I got from that book (and a huge chunk of the point).
When Tahitians came to the (er hurrunmph) "SANDWICH ISLANDS", the book says that there were Hawaiians here already. And that the Hawaiians told the Tahitians that they, although had been here a long time, were by no means the discoverers of these islands. Instead the Hawaiians said that when they arrived originally, these islands were already populated by the "little people"
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 22:41:55
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Po kaika`i na mea e pau.
The thing you may wish to understand about my mana`o about `o huna, is that it is not `o ho`omana!
My kumu (in the Hunian tribal language worked on for three geneations now), was Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long (NOT Hawai`ian language, BUT Hunian language) as I took over from Charlie Kenn when he asked me to, in 1980,
The Hunian language started as a kokiki from ancient Hawai`ian language of 1872 in Honolulu. It has shifted and shifted until many words of it can not longer be understood in Hawai`ian.
Not only do I claim that Huna isn't Hawai`ian at all, but I insist on it! Nor can it be spoken in the Hawai`ian language. "huna" means dust, secrets etc. Whereas iin English we would say, "Huna" in the Hawai`ian we would have to say " `ohuna", to mean the same thing.
Kahuna Big Daddy Bray, a friend to Huna and Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long, taught that there were only four na aumauka: mano, pahi, mo`o and pueo. You should follow the mana`o of your na kumu. I should follow mine.
YTo Hunians, in our religion of Huna, there is a single na Aumakua for every two human na au, living or dead.
I have aloha for you, and your na kumu. Please give me kala for any distress I may have caused you, and aloha for any malu you might share with me.
I have my Path of Huna. I will walk it as best I may. You have a separate Path, I am glad for it, and wish you well on it.
Huna and Ho`omana are entirely different things, although one is the mamo of the other.
Aloha,
Lani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 13:13:03
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Aloha kaleoaloha,
There is a modern tendency to try to ascribe moral values to past events. This is always an error. Moral values are living things only. They are placed upon events and objects by Oiai`o to guide us in our hemolele.
The anti-white, anti-Huna people are trying to ascribe to me, and my `ohana things which we would never do, and have no responsibility over.
Such is the story they tell, and many believe, of the fall of the ancient Hawai`ian culture and language. But this is simply not so.
And I pointed it out to `o olelo hawai`i (her name in Hunian).
Now I can look up the material on Hawai`ian history if you really don't know about it, but I'd rather not waste my time if you already know it.
Before there were any Missionaries in Hawaii, the Hawai`ians cooked and ate Capt. Cook. He had begun to annoy them.
Later, decades later, the young and beloved Prince and Princess of Hawaii came to the United States, and went to Yale University, and there asked the missionaries to come, and "save the heathen souls of our people". It was then, for the first time, that the Yale Missionaries agreed to come to Hawaii.
The Prince and Princess of Hawai`i then left by ship to go to London, but they never made it to England, but died on their way.
They were well beloved by the Hawai`ians and their funerals for them was intense, full of na kahili and auwe nui.
Almost a year before the arrival of the Yale Missionaries the Hawai`ians had called to them, another Hawai`ian Princess deliberately and publicly broke kapu, this started a Civil War in which all the Heiau except Madame Pele's personal underground, heiau `o kapo kohe lele. All the kahunas they could find were killed except for some non-temple ones. This the Hawai`ian natives did themselves to make way for a new religion.
No; it is a disgrace to one's kupuna to avoid acceptance what their actions and reactions were. The only way to be pono is to understand and accept history, and then to move in the only place you CAN move and be moral in: the nei! "That was their road, this is mine."
So a person should not try to criticize one's kupuna for their choices, and try to undo them. But to move respectfully and proudly into the future.
"Huna" started in Honolulu in 1872. Our first mo`i, Kahuna Ha`ole Nui William Tufts Brigham was gladly accepted by the non-white Hawai`ians there. He spoke the Hawai`ian language common to his day, but no longer spoken, it has moved on and changed. His mamo, and my personal kumu, Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long was our second mo`i, and he spoke the language he had been taught, but a little differently then what he had received, and very greatly different from the common Hawai`ian of his day. I was brought into Huna's language construction by the native Hawai`ian great scholar and linguist, Charles Kenn (Arii-Peu Tama-Iti).
I have continued to work on and evolve the Hunian language, as my kupuna wished me to do. I have many adopted mamo now, and lala.
Hawai`ians can grumble all they want about people who assert Huna as Hawai`ian. It isn't. I grumble too. But then I guess that all births are bloody, and this is the birth of a new people; a new religion.
And the mana`o of the webmaster of this board isn't doing "Huna", but is doing the "hawai`ian huna (Hawaiian Secrets)" he has received from his kumu. He didn't just invent it. It's virtue is seen in Philip Young's being.
Your understandings are not my understandings, and we both would disagree with young Philip Young here. So what's new?
Your understanding of the concept of the definition of "Aumakua" is very Japanese-like, and from the Shinto's "Kami". But I don't think you just invented it. Nor did Kahuna Big Daddy Bray invent his teaching that there were only four na Aumakua in all Hawai`i. That's his mana'o.
These things are like "art" or "sports", which art is the "one true art", statues? architecture?, Oil Paints?, watercolors? Pen and Ink?. Which sport is the "One True Sport"? Basketball, Baseball, Sculling?
It is not our individual beliefs which can bind us together as brothers and sisters under Oiai`o, but aloha.
Aloha,
Lani
PS: "Aloha" as a Hunian word is best expressed by a young Polynesian linguist who was helping me with the Hunian language for a while:
"Just a few thoughts on "aloha". First of all, it is not something you can lose, in the same sense as the English "love". It is a response arising
from relationship, not a feeling. "'Aloha" is what you do, not what you feel. It's basic meaning is 'to treat as a full human'. That is why it is
hard to translate. 'Love', 'pity', 'compassion', 'tenderness' are some of the translations. It has no connection with words translated 'lover',
'love-struck', 'love charm', 'love-song', etc., as all these have different words in Polynesian languages, because they have different meanings
to 'aroha'. To 'feel aroha' for someone is to 'have the intention of treating that person as a full human'. Traditionally that meant you had a
relationship with the person - with all its obligations and rights - and you intended to act accordingly. The first thing a Polynesian or Hunian does
when he/she meets someone new is to try and establish a relationship connection. Once you are placed as a relative/friend/workmate/fellow
church member/etc of someone known, then there can be 'aroha'. Without that there is nothing, and traditionally such a person was killed on
the spot, as they were 'non-human' and without a place in the world. That is [or was] common throughout the Pacific.
"Your question revolves around how you feel. It is centered on you as an individual. That is foreign to Polynesian and Hunian thought. You exist only as
a part of a web of relationships - the fulfillment of which is "alofa/aloha/aroha/aro'a" [choose the form you like :) ]. Europeans [especially
Americans] will spend a fortune on counseling because they 'don't love' their parents, or their parents 'don't love' them. A Polynesian and a Hunian treats
his parents with 'aloha' - feeds them, shelters them, treats them with respect - regardless of whether he/she 'loves' them or 'hates' them.
Feelings are not unimportant, but they are not central. Intention and action are central, and feelings will eventually fall into line - most of the
time. Intense hatred for someone does no harm to anyone, and soon passes, if intention and actions are correct. I'm sure Lani will correct me
where he thinks I am wrong :)
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kaleoaloha
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 17:55:49
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Well Lani, you really spelled it out there :)
Thanks for the explanation of Huna and it's relationship to things hawaiian.
I had no clue I guess. I was under a completely (key word) different "assumption".
Any way.. in your previous post you mentioned ...
"this started a Civil War in which all the Heiau except Madame Pele's personal underground, heiau `o kapo kohe lele."
I am curious what you are referring to ? There is much inference to kohe/vagina and kapo chasing pele around in myths. Are you however referring to the lava tube i puna, ma ka mokupuni 'O keawe ?
I had the pleasure of taking a few friends and family there on occasion. I am curious about it though because I took one of my kumu there. She had certainly heard of it as a contemporary find. However had no recollection of any reference to it in her knowledge of history. I have never seen (that I know of) and reference to it after it was "discovered" in relatively recent yrs (the 70's), and subsequently commandeered by the Bishop estate.
Last I was there, someone had bought the lot that the near entrance sits in the middle of. They had completely cleared the land. They left the tube opening intact, but it looked like they were going to restrict access for sure. I thought hmm... "glad I recall 3-4 tube entries down hill, across the highway, from hiking the tube to the ocean a few times" :) |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 19:49:52
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Well Lani, you really spelled it out there :)
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LANI:
Mahalo nui loa.
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Thanks for the explanation of Huna and it's relationship to things hawaiian.
I had no clue I guess. I was under a completely (key word) different "assumption".
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LANI:
No prob. There is much confusion and anger on this subject. This was my POV on it. It is the life I live and the Alanui I follow.
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Any way.. in your previous post you mentioned ...
"this started a Civil War in which all the Heiau except Madame Pele's personal underground, heiau `o kapo kohe lele."
I am curious what you are referring to ? There is much inference to kohe/vagina and kapo chasing pele around in myths. Are you however referring to the lava tube i puna, ma ka mokupuni 'O keawe ?
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LANI:
I don't know the Hawai`ian word for it.
It is a lava tube Heiau. When I was there, the Kahu who had discovered it was hard pressed and was thinking of deeding it over to the Bishop Museum. No Hawai`ian had ever been in since Madame Pele had been there several hundred years before. All the implements for daily living were there. As well as a unique map of the Big Island in a hollow rock. A reverse 3D I suppose. There was a haku there, with an ki`i on it, but I don't remember it well. It was not of my faith, so I didn't go near it, for fear of breaking an unknown Kapu.
I asked the kahu's permission to chant and pray for the good of all life in the world inside Kapo kohe's vagina. He agreed, and I prayed to Madame Pele for permission too.
I entered the little sub-cave, and chanted the Ho`o Hiki chant which has come down to us in Huna, in a Polynesian language older than Hawai`ian. And I was overcome by a female nurturing force of some sort.
On the ceiling is a hole the same size and shape of Kapo's Kohe. There were vines falling down from the hole. It was the only light in the Heiau. It was primeval! Ano nui!
I was only there and chanted there once. You are very blessed to have been there many times!
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I had the pleasure of taking a few friends and family there on occasion. I am curious about it though because I took one of my kumu there. She had certainly heard of it as a contemporary find. However had no recollection of any reference to it in her knowledge of history. I have never seen (that I know of) and reference to it after it was "discovered" in relatively recent yrs (the 70's), and subsequently commandeered by the Bishop estate.
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LANI:
There is no "history" to it. The native Hawai`ians had lost all knowledge of it many years before the Civil War. If they had known of it, it would have been destroyed by them too!
Yet, at least for me, things are as they are, wale, and I am called to act in the nei, and not in the past.
The Hawai`ian kupuna did whatever they did. Now, what will OUR choices be?
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Last I was there, someone had bought the lot that the near entrance sits in the middle of. They had completely cleared the land. They left the tube opening intact, but it looked like they were going to restrict access for sure. I thought hmm... "glad I recall 3-4 tube entries down hill, across the highway, from hiking the tube to the ocean a few times" :)
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Lani:
Po maika`i na mea e pau.
And may your journey in this lifetime be fruitful and a happy experience for you. May the honey be worth the bee stings.
Aloha,
Lani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 17:39:01
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Aloha Kaleoaloha,
First, this should have been in this thread, but I posted this little bit in the Hunian Gourd thread:
LANI: "Another difficulty people can have is not realizing that when most people are talking about Huna it is in the Hunian language and not the Hawai`ian language. Kahuna Max expected people to know the difference and so he didn't say it every time he spoke or wrote. He wrote a book on the Hunian language, "The Huna Code in Religions". In any case, the most important concept in Huna is probably the "Aumakua", yet, it is NOT the Hawai`ian concept of "Aumakua" that is refered to in Hawai`ian! NO! The Hawai`ian definition of "Aumakua" has nothing to do at all with the Hunian definition and understanding of "Aumakua". The pre-Contact Hawai`ians called what we call an "Aumakua", an "Akua Lele", They don't recognize today, as far as I know, what we call an Aumakua. And the word "Akua Lele", in today's Hawai`ian, means a dancing globe of light which follows a person around. I have known such a one in the Big Island. But this one was a guide. The unfriendly ones, the Hawai`ians curse at, and the frail akua lele break up. (SHURG) Also, what the Hawai`ians today call "Aumakua", we wouldn't call "Aumakua" in Huna at all, but an "Akua Makua". And there would be one for each species of life, except for humans, who don't need them because they have na Aumakua.
So in the Hawai`ian language "Pueo" is an Aumakua (according to Kahuna Big Daddy Bray) BUT it is an "Akua Makua" (Daddy God, guardian of that species) in the Hunian language. Some are involved with humans, most are not.
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Kaleoaloha: "If somebody is right, doesn't that in turn make somebody wrong?"
I am not saying your wrong. Nor that My teachers are right !"
I missed your question at first.
No, that is a "Scientific" question, and not a "Religious" one. Science: "Is that a tree over there?" Religion: "Isn't that tree over there beautiful?"
Science: "Is that a tree?" (How many answers possible? One.)
Religion: "Is that beautiful?" (How many kinds of beauty are there?)
So I would say that your na kumu were as right for what they were doing as humans usually are, as my kumu, as right as a human usually is, was right about what he was trying to do. A paint brush, even of the finest kind, is not too good at making a marble statue.
Yet BOTH an oil painting and a statue are beautiful?
Aloha,
Lani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 13/01/2006 : 09:24:23
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Aloha Kaleoaloha,
There are many in the world, who through their bad luck, are posers or wannabes. One may have diffuculty telling them apart from the real thing.
"Hunamind" mentioned the Kahuna Jack Gray the haumana of the kumu Clark Wilkerson (who started out being the head Kahuna on Oahu, then sold out his inheritance, and moved first to Pacific Pallisades in Claifornia, then later to Las Vegas). Kahuna Jack was in our Huna Heiau for our annual "Dawngreating Ceremony" done each year on the morning of our Makahiki Celebration.
I offered to send him a scan of Kahuna Jack against the haka at the Huna Heiau as we were all preparing to go into the mountains to face the dawn. I also offered to send him a photo of the insides of Kahuna Daddy Bray's Heiau.
If you are in need of discovering if I am real or not, send me an e-mail, and I'll send you a photo of me in my Northern Plains Indian "Rocky Boy" dance outfit, druming. And a scan of a photo I took on the entrance of the Cave of Kapo-Kohe-Lele, to show you I was really there.
Aloha,
Lani
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2006 : 18:11:55
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Aloha Phil, Master of Masterworks!
You said:
"Without digging out my copy of the Andrews dictionary I think
"Kinoakalau
"Kinoakala
"Kinowailua
"are all in there and are all related concepts to that of kino lau. In my understanding au relates to "awareness." Have either of you read Michael Kioni Dudleys unpublished PhD thesis on Hawaiian concepts (his book A Hawaiian Nation - Man, Gods and Nature was extracted from part of it) The whole thesis is fascinating and caused quite a stir among certain people. Not least his professors!
Phil"
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So how'd you get so smart?
Yes, much of the Hunian language is constructed upon the no longer spoken Hawai`ian. The Andrews Dictionary of the Hawai`ian language, published in 1865 is contemporary with the Hawai`ian language learned and spoken by the founder of Huna, Kahuna Ha`ole Nui William Tufts Brigham (Great White Priest). Which later evolved into the Hunian language. Except for the theological definitions, of course, which are quite different, and a lot of the Grammar.
Again it can confusing if you don't know what language is being spoken, Hawai`ian or Hunian. One speaks, and the other person is content that he understands, but he does not. This doesn't happen if one decides correctly which language is being spoken.
For example, there is no "time" in Hunian theology or grammar as there is in other languages. Every event is seen to operate in its own au or flow.
So there is no "Past Tense", as there is no "Past". There IS a sequence of events on top of another, this is sort of represented by the Hunian grammatical mental-directive of "ua".
Again from the young Maori linguist who was helping me to understand Hunian constructions:
"Elbert classifies ua (pronounced as "wha" as in "what" but without the "t" sound) as 'perfective' (completed action) and 'inceptive' (the beginning of action). That didn't make sense – to use the same particle for beginning and completing. But, with a bit of checking against Maori and in Tregear, I worked it out. "ua" means 'completed', which with active verbs means completed action, but with stative verbs means 'complete entering into the state'. So, "ua 'eha ko'u lima” (my hand hurts) does parallel "ua hele mai ke kanaka" (the man came). In the second, the act of coming/arriving is complete, in the first, the entering into the state of hurting is complete. The first is interesting, as 'hele' could also be stative - ua hele = having entered into the state of having arrived. The particle DOES NOT represent past time, only completed action. Whether that is distant or recent past, or future, has to be determined from context or from 'time' words. I am very pleased to work this out, as I thought it would slow things down a lot."
The last part of this description is deceptive. There is no "space" or "distance" in Hunian language or theology. Everything is always at the center of the universe. Doesn't it look that way to you too? Sure it does. And if it weren't for a "Latin" derived language, you would have noticed it before. What separates all the na au, is our "pili" (relationship) rather than a fictional "space".
See your friend asleep and dreaming. Awaken him and ask him what he was just doing? He says that he just crossed his bedroom. You were there, he was (his au was) in his Moku in the Dreamworld, you were with his kino in the Created World, how far did he walk? No distance, he was asleep. So what actually happened? His perceived pili or relationship to the other side of his bedroom changed. In Hunian, "hele" means to tighten or loosed a spiral or pili. To "hele mai" in Hunian means to increase the intensity of a pili or relationship. NOT, "come here", as it can mean in Hawai`ian.
Aloha,
Lani
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 21:02:15
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Forgive me, I'm a haole from Hawaii, more specifically French (everyone thinks I'm Irish because of the name, but I consider myself Hawaiian because I've lived here my entire life and my father's best friend was a native Hawaiian. I've heard about Huna before but never about the Hunian language, so I have a few questions if you'd forgive me for being too nosey:
1) By saying that there is a Hunian language, do you mean that you guys have a list of terms and phrases that you identify as Hunian, or do you mean that it is a complete language that has developed syntax, particles, determiners,demonstratives, pronouns, possesive pronouns, vocabulary, and all that other gramitical stuff to the point where people can communicate in that language without having to rely on, say, English?
2) Are there people who speak Hunian fluently among one another, and if so are there native speakers of the language?
3) Is there any literature (books, articles, etc...) written in Huna, and if not could you write a short paragraph in the Hunian language so I could have something with which to practice?
4) If Huna is not the same as Hawaiian then why do you have a name chant from a native Hawaiian kahuna?
5) Is there a Hunian dictionary that can help me pronounce some of these "hukahuka mugamuga wambam shabambaboo" types of words?
This topic is just so fascinating to me. If Huniain is in fact a solid language, I'm looking forward to learning it in the future, along with my intensive study in this alluring spiritual practice.
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Edited by - Oconner on 02/04/2006 22:25:38 |
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2006 : 20:53:53
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I've been doing a lot of searching on this forum and on the internet in the last few days. The Hunian religion is impressive, but I haven't found many examples of the Hunian language anywhere on here, which is discouraging. Moreover, one of the most complex sentences written on this site seems to be "Ke 'ai nei 'oia," which is supposed to mean "He/she/it is eating." "Ke" is described as meaning "the" and "'ai" is described as meaning "eat," "nei" is said to mean "here and now," and "oia" which is pronounced "oh yeah" is said to mean "he/she/it."
In English, then, it would actually be saying "The eat now he."
A second sentence "Ua hele mai ke kanaka," is said to mean "the man came," and a third sentence "Ua 'eha ko'u lima" is said to mean "my hand hurts." Using the grammar posted here that says "Ua," which is pronounced like the "wha" in "what" without the "t," is a marker for a perfective or completed action, in reality, "Ua hele mai ke kanaka" is saying "Did come here the man" and "Ua 'eha ko'u lima" means "Did hurt my hand."
In the Hunian language, apparently, sentences like "The eat now he," "Did hurt my hand," and "Did come here the man" is acceptable. However, if a person would utter such sentences in English, he might be considered autistic. The awkwardness of the Hunian language can not be explained by its backward syntax alone; its warped word order can not account for its weak sentence patterns which must rely on particles like "ua," allegedly meaning completed action, and "ke verb nei 'oia" meaning "the verb now he" in order to explain tense. I should also point out that the verb following the word "Ke" is mentioned in a post above to be nounish because of its position behind "ke." Here we see another weakness in this type of sentence because unlike English and other civilized languages, Hunian does not seem to alter its verbs according to tense. In contrast, in English we have the words "eat, ate,and eating" where the verbs ungergo morphological change along with the tense.
From my observations on these Hunian sentence patterns, which are the most complex anywhere on this site or on any other site for that matter,it is obvious why people around the world are so quick to embrace this language: its simplicity touches the child within. There is no concept of past tense, only "ua," the completed state marker that implies that a state has been achieved, and as a side effect the action takes place in a time before the present. One possibility is that because the Hunian language has not developed the ability of civilized languages to express complex ideas, it has not moved itself far enough from the beginning of human evolution to have a past to look back to. It is comparable to languages in Africa where entire sentences are burped out with popping and clicking sounds.
Although the Hunian language is still in a primative stage of growth, far from being as developed as English, Greek, or Latin, we can enjoy this simplicity. The Hunian language is cute, and without any effort at all, someone could master this language in a few weeks if not sooner.
A hui hou,
Oconner |
Edited by - Oconner on 03/04/2006 21:11:52 |
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Phil
Ireland
190 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2006 : 18:28:47
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For a change sitting reading these posts in Kaua'i rather than UK or Ireland.
I have no comment on the Hunaian language as Lani works on it but I think you will find more on his newsgroups Oconner.
I wonder if like e-prime it excludes the verb to be.
Phil |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2006 : 13:45:22
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Aloha Phil,
You are correct.
There is no verb "to be", nor is there any verb, "to have".
Both concepts are completely non-Hunian.
Everything is always in flux, never static or "is". There are no or at least few negatives at all in the Hunian thought process and language.
The problem contains its resolution when expressed. There is NO "He IS a coward." The Hunian statement in that situtaion would be transliterated as, "He does not have the courage necessary to fulfill that challenge at this time." The soulution? He must develop more courage. In English? "He IS a coward." The solution in English thought and action? Give up and commit suicicde.
The soultion in Hunian? Take up Aikido.
A hui hou,
Lani |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2006 : 12:56:44
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Aloha Oconnor,
How old are you?
If you're under 25-35, your obnoxiousness is just the friction one generation almost always feels towards the another, and so you are given a pass by me.
If you're older than about 30-35, remember, arrogance just isn't enough anymore!
One of your questions is worth an answer:
"4) If Huna is not the same as Hawaiian then why do you have a name chant from a native Hawaiian kahuna?"
The Way of things:
One of the people how helped Kahuna Nui Max in the continued development of the Hunian Language was the greatest Hawaiian linguistic scholar they ever had, and a HRA too: Charlie Kenn.
Our gods of Huna, our great Po`e Aumakua, tried to return the fire-made-sacred to Huna in 1949. There were only two Firewalk Priests (na Kahuna I Ke Umu Ki) left in all of Polynesia. And one came from Tahiti to Honolulu to pass on the torch to us. (That wasn't why he thought he came.)
Our gods planned for Charlie Kenn to bring the sacred fire back to us. When he was adopted into the Firewalk lineage, his name changed and became: "Arii-Peu Tama-Iti". There is no "T" in the Hawaiian language, he was the greatest Hawaiian language scholar there ever was, how could this be? He was named by a Tahitian!
So how come my name changed from "Eugene" to "Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`aLani"? Simple, I was named by a native Hawaiian Kahuna whose gods spoke to her, and I submitted. I was called by the Huna gods and her to bring back the Firewalk to Huna, which I have done.
My Huna harkens back to my kupuna's kupuna, the Hawaiians.
But as Arii-Peu Tama-Iti was NOT a Tahitian, I am not a Hawaiian. When we are both in our proper pili, we are both honored by each other. When Hawaiians pretend to be Hunians or Hunians to be Hawaiians, both peoples are corrupted and sullied.
Of course when haoles do it to us, they are mostly just ignored...
You are wanting to learn our "cute" and uncivilized language which you say you could master in about two weeks? I'm afraid I can't oblige you.
The Hunian language is for Hunians.
I post on elements of it which I am inspired to do from time to time on different Huna and Hunian conferences, but in toto, it is the liturgical language of the Hunian na Kahuna, and a sacred thing to us. A living thing. We share it only with our friends.
It is very difficult to learn, as its thought POV is so very alien to English thought patterns (see the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis) that is an entirely different world. Of course, it can fail if a person tries to learn it as a funny way of thinking in English.
That's what Arii-Peu Tama-Iti was yelling at me about at the Huna International Conference on the Big Island of Hawaii in 1980.
That was the beginning of the understanding for me of the alien quality of the Hunian language.
Arii-Peu Tama-Iti told me that the missionaries had changed the language, but they never intended to do it, nor did they ever know that they had done so.
The smallest unit of consideration in Hunian is the `ohana or extended family. The individual isn't that special, not a separate "I", selfishly individualistic. But knows himself or herself as a nexus of pili or relationships. To the Hunian and old Hawaiian language, there is no "I", only "au" a flow in the mind of God.
It became compulsory for Hawaiian children to learn their language from the Missionaries. The Missionaries were arrogant, as you are too (SHRUG, I don't mind), and so couldn't conceive that the language was superior to English---as to relationships and happiness and joy.
But taught the Hawaiian kids that "au" meant "I", and what "I" meant. So at home, the kids would say "au" but think "separateness, alienation, individuality", and their parents would say "au" and think, "a flow in the mind of God, lokahi: harmony and unity) and no one ever knew that by that action, the old culture was lost. No one knew...
But it would be an arrogance on our part to presume to "teach" Hawaiian to the Hawaiians! So we don't. I will embrace all Polynesians who want me to embrace them, and let all the others go in peace if I can.
So it would be possible for a person to learn Hunian and think "identity" when they say "au", and then, Hunian would also be just a funny way of speaking/thinking in English. Or it is a doorway into perceiving the real world. And why blessed fire doesn't burn naked flesh---as we did it again a couple of weeks ago.
Aloha,
Kahuna Ho`anoiwahinenuiho`alani
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2006 : 21:39:39
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I had no idea that you were so intent on keeping the Hunian language closed to non-Hunians, especially when they’re interested in the culture and religion. The world that we live in is rapidly expanding, and I am disturbed at your efforts for segregation.
Whether or not your language is truly as authentic as you’ve stated is impossible to tell because there aren’t any native speakers, and you haven’t listed any literature in the language nor have you written in Hunian for any more than a few sentences on this site. The only other sources of material written in Hunian are found on other Hunian sites, and they, too, are shown in only short phrases. It would be impressive to see you write a clear-minded paragraph in the Hunian language, but that would probably be impossible; none of the Hunian speakers can express anything as complex as they could in English or their native tongue. Instead, they struggle to produce only basic expressions like “He is eating.”
Furthermore, in your message above, you state your own observations of the weaknesses in the language:
“There is no verb ‘to be,’ nor is there any verb, ‘to have’ [sic]. Both concepts are completely non-Hunian. Everything is always in flux, never static or ‘is.’ There are no or at least few negatives at all in the Hunian thought process and language.”
While you described passionately the erratic thought processes involved in Hunian, you failed to add examples of these alleged sentence patterns. There is no evidence that these formulas exists.
In my short time here, I've come to deeply respect ‘o Huna, and I champion its continuation. It still has a long way to go, but eventually with a lot of hard work the Hunian language may blossom and catch up with the rest of the modern world. Until then, I stand firmly behind my statement that Hunian can be learned easily, and despite its flaws, I still find the Hunian language adorable. In response to you calling me arrogant for my views on your language, I applaud you, since your defense shows me that you care deeply about ‘o Huna. Still, your statements are unfounded. For example, in this thread you made several references to the Andrews Dictionary and how Hunian was constructed upon no-longer-spoken Hawaiian. Surely, you should remember that Lorrin Andrews didn’t consider any of the tongues in Polynesia to be true languages. Rather, he wisely posited that they were all savage dialects of the primitive Polynesian language. This would not exclude your language, as shown by the simpliity of Hunian sentence patterns, especially if much of it is founded on archaic Hawaiian. So you see, when I'm calling the Hunian language uncivilized, I'm not being arrogant; I'm just stating the facts.
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 15/04/2006 : 14:29:29
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Aloha Oconnor,
Nice post.
Still arrogant. But nice.
(Lani checks his feathers for undue ruffling, nope,)
You said, "Furthermore, in your message above, you state your own observations of the weaknesses in the language:
“There is no verb ‘to be,’ nor is there any verb, ‘to have’ [sic]. Both concepts are completely non-Hunian. Everything is always in flux, never static or ‘is.’ There are no or at least few negatives at all in the Hunian thought process and language.”
While you described passionately the erratic thought processes involved in Hunian, you failed to add examples of these alleged sentence patterns. There is no evidence that these formulas exists."
For you, they memain a mystery, and probably don't exist---for you. For me?
The verb "to be" is so universally understood to be a corruption on reality, that there are whole scientific journals which use a form of English they have devised which avoids it. Check out, oh what's that name? Oh yes, http://www.general-semantics.org/
The fact that the "Scientific" mindset blinds people to the real world was also commented upon by the great Sioux Holy Man, Black Elk, who was the Sioux Holy Man, Frank Fools Crow's uncle. Here is a quote about the falsity of "space", which I have commented on in an earlier post. Now, it is in the Hunian religion and mindset that space, known to English thinkers, is a fallacy and untrue (See: "Thought, Language and Reality" by Sapir, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis). There is only One. Our "au" or flows are temporarily separated by "pili" or relationship:
Joseph Campbell: .. But instead of relieving the boy of the deities, the shaman is adapting him to the deities and the deities to himself. ... Here, the deities who have been encountered-powers, let's call them-are retained. The connection is maintained, not broken. And these men then become the spiritual advisers and gift-givers to their people.
Well, what happened with this young boy was that he had a prophetic vision of the terrible future of his tribe. It was a vision of what he called "the hoop" of the nation. In the vision, Black Elk saw that the hoop of his nation (Lani: the Oglala Sioux) was one of many hoops, which is something that we haven't learned at all well yet. He saw the cooperation of all the hoops, all the nations in grand procession. But more than that, the vision was an experience of himself as going through the realms of spiritual imagery that were of his culture and assimilating their import. It comes to one great statement, which for me is a key statement to the understanding of myth and symbols. He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere."
That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience-this is the mythological experience.
...
There is a definition of God which has been repeated by many philosophers. God is an intelligible sphere-a sphere known to the mind, not to the senses-whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere. And the center, Bill, is right where you're sitting. And the other one is right where I'm sitting. And each of us is a manifestation of that mystery. That's a nice mythological realization that sort of gives you a sense of who and what you are. ---Joseph Campbell
All consciousness, the Creator God, Oiai`o, dwells inside Po---the Void. The Created World is INSIDE the mind of Oiai`o (God). -Lani
IOW all "civilized" languages and thought processes are false to fact.
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 17/04/2006 : 23:11:40
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| How tangy (Oconner gives Lani a kleenex). |
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Lani
Vanuatu
172 Posts |
Posted - 18/04/2006 : 12:27:29
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Aloha Oconner,
Is this the way you think will be successful in approaching a kumu and asking him or her to become your teacher?
It isn't likely to succeed.
As Jesus said, "Knock at the door, and it shall be open to you." But you're not knocking at the door, bro, you're knocking at a wall.
Come to San Diego next year for the Makahiki (March 20-22), take your shoes off, and walked into the firepit with us. If the gods of Huna accept you, your naked flesh will be unburnt. If not, you'll yelp!
If our gods accept you, you can seek to do what the Hunians do, and seek out a kumu to teach you our Ways, Culture and language.
A simple thing, open your heart to humility and carefulness, then hop aboard, as an intelligent being---and not as a haole.
("haole" isn't a skin color, it is an attitude of arrogance)
And then you won't feel a need to shame yourself by asking in public: "When you guys do that mahahiki celebration, do you guys wear diapers like the other Polynesians, and do you dig a hole and put dirt all over your food too? Lol."
Aloha,
Kahuna Lani
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 22/04/2006 : 16:08:03
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Aloha Lani,
(Oconner laughs and scrapes the gum from the bottom of his shoe).
If you object to your feeble language from being criticized for its primitiveness, you should post a complex, lengthy Hunian paragraph, and explain how its grammatical structures rival those of English. Better yet, argue your point in the Hunian language.
Here's another kleenex, you're starting to melt. 
Oconner
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Ironhand
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 02:02:01
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quote:
1) By saying that there is a Hunian language, do you mean that you guys have a list of terms and phrases that you identify as Hunian, or do you mean that it is a complete language that has developed syntax, particles, determiners,demonstratives, pronouns, possesive pronouns, vocabulary, and all that other gramitical stuff to the point where people can communicate in that language without having to rely on, say, English?
2) Are there people who speak Hunian fluently among one another, and if so are there native speakers of the language?
3) Is there any literature (books, articles, etc...) written in Huna, and if not could you write a short paragraph in the Hunian language so I could have something with which to practice?
4) If Huna is not the same as Hawaiian then why do you have a name chant from a native Hawaiian kahuna?
5) Is there a Hunian dictionary that can help me pronounce some of these "hukahuka mugamuga wambam shabambaboo" types of words?
quote:
Originally posted by Oconner
I had no idea that you were so intent on keeping the Hunian language closed to non-Hunians, especially when they’re interested in the culture and religion. The world that we live in is rapidly expanding, and I am disturbed at your efforts for segregation.
Whether or not your language is truly as authentic as you’ve stated is impossible to tell because there aren’t any native speakers, and you haven’t listed any literature in the language nor have you written in Hunian for any more than a few sentences on this site. The only other sources of material written in Hunian are found on other Hunian sites, and they, too, are shown in only short phrases. It would be impressive to see you write a clear-minded paragraph in the Hunian language, but that would probably be impossible; none of the Hunian speakers can express anything as complex as they could in English or their native tongue. Instead, they struggle to produce only basic expressions like “He is eating.”
Furthermore, in your message above, you state your own observations of the weaknesses in the language:
“There is no verb ‘to be,’ nor is there any verb, ‘to have’ [sic]. Both concepts are completely non-Hunian. Everything is always in flux, never static or ‘is.’ There are no or at least few negatives at all in the Hunian thought process and language.”
While you described passionately the erratic thought processes involved in Hunian, you failed to add examples of these alleged sentence patterns. There is no evidence that these formulas exists.
In my short time here, I've come to deeply respect ‘o Huna, and I champion its continuation. It still has a long way to go, but eventually with a lot of hard work the Hunian language may blossom and catch up with the rest of the modern world. Until then, I stand firmly behind my statement that Hunian can be learned easily, and despite its flaws, I still find the Hunian language adorable. In response to you calling me arrogant for my views on your language, I applaud you, since your defense shows me that you care deeply about ‘o Huna. Still, your statements are unfounded. For example, in this thread you made several references to the Andrews Dictionary and how Hunian was constructed upon no-longer-spoken Hawaiian. Surely, you should remember that Lorrin Andrews didn’t consider any of the tongues in Polynesia to be true languages. Rather, he wisely posited that they were all savage dialects of the primitive Polynesian language. This would not exclude your language, as shown by the simpliity of Hunian sentence patterns, especially if much of it is founded on archaic Hawaiian. So you see, when I'm calling the Hunian language uncivilized, I'm not being arrogant; I'm just stating the facts.
quote:
If you object to your feeble language from being criticized for its primitiveness, you should post a complex, lengthy Hunian paragraph, and explain how its grammatical structures rival those of English. Better yet, argue your point in the Hunian language.
Here's another kleenex, you're starting to melt.
Lani was ripped apart. And, yes, there is no such thing as the Hunian language in terms of it being an actual language. No Hunian can communicate anything more complex than "I am eating" in it. Since Lani was found to be a fraud who speaks no such language, he ran away. Don't cry too hard Lani. There are probably a couple of homeless mental patients who will still believe in you and your make-believe language. Hahaha. |
Edited by - Ironhand on 23/10/2006 20:02:19 |
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:35:24
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| Lol. Ua pau ihola ko Lani kulana he kahuna hilinai ia i ke kihaehae a me ka polukuluku wale ia me ka maalahi no ka hikiole ia ia ke hoolako mai i wahi laana o kana wahi olelo wahahee i kapa ia e ia o "Huna," i loko nae o ka nonoke ana i ko'u mau hoolaau ana ia ia a me ka manawa he nui lawa i haawi ia ia ia e hoike mai ai i ia mea. Ua noi ia oia e hoike mai i ia mea ma kahi o hookahi makahiki aku nei, me ka nele i kana hooia ana mai a aia i loko o ia manawa pokole ua paa maila ka olelo Hawaii ia'u, a o ka mea walohia loa ka oi aku paha o ko'u makaukau ma keia olelo ma mua o kona ma kela olelo ana i olelo ai nana i kukulu. He olelo ahiu loa no ka olelo Hawaii aka oki loa aku ke kamalii ana o ka olelo mea ole o "Huna". |
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 04:10:22
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| bump |
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 05:22:14
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Ua kakau au i keia mea hookahi ma kahi e o keia kahua punaewele aka e waiho hou ana au i keia maanei no ka mea e pili ana ia i ke kumuhana hookahi a he kakoo ia i hemahema o ka ike i kukulu ia ai ka olelo Huna.
quote:
Originally posted by Lani
The Hunian language was started by the founder of Huna, Kahuna Nui Ha`ole William Tufts Brigham, then passed down the Huna lineage to Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long, then Kahuna Max was kokua by Arii-Peu Tama-Iti, perhaps the highest Hawaiian language translator in existence while he lived. Recognized by the Hawaiian Congress and awarded as a "Hawaiian Living Treasure.
Then Kahuna Max wrote a book on it, "The Huna Code in Religions". I read it, but I never understood its context or significance until the 1980 Huna International Convention in Hawaii, when Arii- Peu Tama-Iti . I didn't know that I was in a spirited discussion with such a celebrity. He told me all about it, and the, depths of the Hunian language, he concentrated on the understanding of the Hunian and Hawaiian word, "AU".
Whenever English uses the word/concept of "I", ot "individuality", both the Hawaiian language and the Hunian language use the word, "au", BUT "au" DOESN'T mean "I".
It means a flow (in the mind of God). (Or as Kevin puts it, "a nexus of na pili) (a focus of relationships.)
I contemplated that for a couple of years until I finally understood what he was trying to say. He was yelling at me, "The Missionaries changed the language, and NOBODY knew it! The Missionaries didn't know it! The Haumana (Students) didn't know it! And their parents didn't know it either. For wherever au is used in Hawaiian, "I" is used in English. No one understood that they, while having the same grammar slot --- had different meanings." And so the modern Hawaiian language is not a good vehicle at all for Hunian concepts.
Eia hou kekahi kumu e kakoo ana i ko'u manao paa no ka hemahema loa o ka ike i hoohana ia e kukulu i ka olelo Huna. Ma luna, ua olelo o Lani ua hoololi na mikionali i ka manao o ka olelo o ka olelo Hawaii "au" no ka mea i kona manao, i ka wa kahiko aole o "I" ka manao aka o "flow" ka manao maoli. Aka aole kela ka oiaio. Ina kakou e nana i ka puke wehewehe olelo Hawaii hou a Elbert laua o Pukui i kakau ai, i mea e hooponopono ai i ka puke wehewehe a Andrew's no ka nui loa o na hewa o loko, a laila e ike kakou i ka olelo protopolynesian he mau olelo okoa na oleo i hui pu ia i puana hookahi ma ka olelo Hawaii o ia hoi ka olelo "au." Ma ka olelo protopolynesian o "'au", me ka okina ma mua, ka olelo no flow a o au, me ka ole o ka okina ma mua, ka olelo no "I."
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Edited by - Oconner on 11/07/2007 05:22:59 |
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Oconner
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 05:33:47
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Eia kekahi mea hou mai keia link http://groups.msn.com/Huna-Forum/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1613&LastModified=4675619283191625662
quote:
Originally posted by Lani
Ah, and then there is the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, and everything changed.
Aloha kakou,
I just found a Con-Lang group on MYSPACE. So I joined it, and just posted this. Hummm...
Lani
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The Po`e Aumakua (Great Company of Angelic beings), tricked Kahuna Ha`ole Nui (Great White Priest, called so by the native Hawaiians) William Tufts Brigham to Honolulu in 1872 --- and there he saw things and did things which changed him forever. He had one haumana (student, lit one who consumes the supernatural power or life force of another), Kahuna Nui max Freedom Long. (As opposed to "kumu" a source, or fountainhead, i.e., a teacher)
And Kahuna (Priest, Minister) William learned the Hawaiian tongue of commoners in Honolulu completely. (There were 15 dialects of Hawaiian in 1872, three for each of the five islands, a Royal dialect, a priestly dialect and a commoners dialect) ) But he was a scientist, and a member of "New Thought" religious movement (Church of Religious, Unity, etc.) ...the meanings and spellings of the word/concepts started to change in his mind. A separate dialect began to form. His only haumana and mamo (heir) came to think in that tongue, and many more words were added. For example: the "inoa" or the Hawaiian language for "name" became the "kainoa" of the Hunians. And so on.
He was helped by the world's leading authority of the Hawaiian language, Arii-Peu Tama-Iti in the late 1940's.
But the language can't be spoken. It didn't have a grammar.
I inherited it in 1980, and I have completed a grammar and a simple vocabulary as well as the advanced theological/philosophical vocabulary of my kumu, Kahuna Nui Max Freedom Long.
At least a dozen or more Hunians want to speak it. "Hi, my name is Lani, where is the bathroom? What a nice rubber ducky you have there" (If it could just be spoken at a 5 year old level I would be happy. Later generations can build upon that honua (firmament, foundation).
I just love its regularity. There are no real nouns or verbs. Every nounish can be made a verbish by adding the universal suffix "`ana". "ka launa" = the associate. "ka launa`ana" = a networking meeting (a meet and greet) (Lit: "the associating.).
So, the language just sits here in my computer. A language made to couch the alien theological concepts of ancient Polynesia...and of my religion, "Huna" what is my next step?
Anyone got any idea how to teach it?
Lani
Lol i kona hoike ana i ke ano kamalii o kana olelo Huna.
Eia kekahi hemahema hou, aole hoolilo ka "ana" i ka noun i verb aka hoolilo ka "ana" i ka verb i noun. |
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Hunian language vs. Hawaiian language
